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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: adhocphotographer on February 09, 2012, 04:34:33 AM

Title: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: adhocphotographer on February 09, 2012, 04:34:33 AM
I realise I am in the minority, but I am NOT currently in the market for FF body (not that I wouldn’t like one, just I have not got the glass or the money), but am dieing to replace my banged up 450D.
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: whatta on February 09, 2012, 04:41:30 AM
I have only crop lenses so far and I want a relatively small camera, so I am one of them  ;)

I expected the 650d (the camera I have been waiting for.?) for the CP+..
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: briansquibb on February 09, 2012, 05:05:23 AM
I realise I am in the minority, but I am NOT currently in the market for FF body (not that I wouldn’t like one, just I have not got the glass or the money), but am dieing to replace my banged up 450D.
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

A used 40D is very good value for money
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: funkboy on February 09, 2012, 05:20:13 AM
A used 40D is very good value for money

I'll second that.  The only thing that would compel me to move up to something more modern is video & focus calibration.  The viewfinder is quite good for a crop camera (though not as good as the 7D).  The interchangeable focus screens make it a snap to add a Katz Eye for manual focus lenses.  The AF is better than the unit in the 5DII & 6+fps is pretty fast if you need speed.

If you've got the scratch, the 7D is really a very good camera.  There may be a 7D MKII announced at Photokina this year (or maybe CES next year, who knows), but don't let that stop you if you need a camera now.  Prices have really come down recently (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/02849/Canon-EOS-7D-price.html).
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: nicku on February 09, 2012, 05:34:29 AM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: alipaulphotography on February 09, 2012, 05:42:11 AM
I realise I am in the minority, but I am NOT currently in the market for FF body (not that I wouldn’t like one, just I have not got the glass or the money), but am dieing to replace my banged up 450D.
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

You have plenty of cropped bodies already on the market for sale at very reasonable prices. 550D 600D 40D 50D 60D 7D

All of which are significant upgrades to your 450D and would more than meet your requirements.

The majority of us are after a small bodied full frame with more than 1 useable AF point - is that so much to ask canon?
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: KeithR on February 09, 2012, 05:59:19 AM
The majority of us
You can't gauge what "the majority of us" want from comments on here.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Rampado on February 09, 2012, 06:08:30 AM
The majority of us
You can't gauge what "the majority of us" want from comments on here.

you´re right! but I am with him! A cheap full frame!
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: motorhead on February 09, 2012, 06:15:03 AM
Ever since buying my one and only crop camera, the 30D, I've been pining for a return to full frame. Now I finally have a 5D2, the answer to your question is a catagorical NO!
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: alipaulphotography on February 09, 2012, 07:03:34 AM
The majority of us
You can't gauge what "the majority of us" want from comments on here.

Very true. My point was that cropped bodies are well provided for at the moment where as those after a non gripped full frame with more than one useable AF point are not.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Maui5150 on February 09, 2012, 07:54:18 AM
There are a lot of great crop bodies that are cheap upgrades from your 450D... the 60D or 7D are fine examples... heck even the T2i or T3i are a nice bump. 

I think with the advent of the improvements in the Sony NEX and some of the other cameras in general, the Crop Body is heading towards more of a Prosumer line and the 7D goes away into the 70D

Know that is not what some what to hear, but I can see with competition, there is a blurring of differences between Crop and Full Frame in terms of body performance and can't see Canon or Nikon really selling two cameras with very similar attributes other than one FF and one Crop.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: mStevens on February 09, 2012, 08:03:52 AM
I also have a 40D and I do love it for taking soccer pictures. I am considering the 7D now that prices have dropped. However, I really want a cropped frame that has excellent ISO so I am going to sit tight to  see what new cameras are released this year. If Canon does not come out with a new cropped frame, I will move up to a FF that has better ISO.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: recon photography on February 09, 2012, 08:08:49 AM
i would buy a 70d if it came out in about three months
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: sawsedge on February 09, 2012, 08:18:09 AM
I have a 50D and I have great prints on the wall from it, so I'm not worried about sensors or sizes.  I will benefit from better ISO and DR of course, but the most important upgrade for me will be AF.  I'm waiting to see what the 7D2 brings.  I'd have gotten the 7D but my wife would have killed me... waiting keeps me out of the doghouse. 
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: bonedaddy.p7 on February 09, 2012, 09:22:08 AM
I feel there are plenty of people in the market for crop sensors. some of us just don't have the money to leap to FF, others want the reach, and I'm sure there are others who have other reasons.

Personally, I don't consider the 60D or 7D cheap with my budget, so I am holding out for a 7D2 or a 70D with features like the 7D (micro adjust, AF and 2 axis level being the big items for me). My Budget could allow for a 5D2 at the current prices but not any adequate glass to go with it, plus I don't like the idea of spending so much money on something that will in all likelihood be replaced soon (personal preference, the 5D2 is still a wonderful camera).
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: mb66energy on February 09, 2012, 09:34:53 AM
I realise I am in the minority, but I am NOT currently in the market for FF body (not that I wouldn’t like one, just I have not got the glass or the money), but am dieing to replace my banged up 450D.
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

Crop bodies have some advantages: Good compromise between price and performance, has larger DOF and makes ultra-compact tele lenses.
The EF2.0/100 on a crop body is a 2.0/160mm lens in 35equiv terms with the size of a larger standard lens!

... and some disadvantages: higher DOF, more noise especially at low ISO values, limited enlargement factors for print-outs.

For me a good crop camera (solid, high exposure range, good low ISO capability) make a great allrounder and fits to me tele centered style of photography - so that is, at the moment, my future. Think about the 5.6 400 which is "tele-converted" by the crop sensor into a 5.6 640 lens at moderate price and size ... you can afford it and you want to use it because it is light and compact. A full frame camera would smash that important advantage of crop bodies for my photographic necessities.

I see two lines of crop bodies: Follow ups of the existing lines of DSLRs but I see also a compact EVIL by canon with enhanced video capabilities and compactness (perhaps a new bayonet layout but with adaptor for EF/EF-S lenses). The compact evil would be interesting for me because I really LIKE my 40D (as a lot of participants of that thread) uiand I like to produce video staff with my lenses.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: JonJT on February 09, 2012, 10:51:07 AM
I've also got a crop and, I'm sticking with it.

All this excitement about the upcoming FF models is exciting, though, because it provides a benchmark that future crop releases can be compared to.  And, as many have pointed out, the tonal range, dynamic range and noise performance of Canon's crop sensors needs to be improved if they are going to remain competitive in the future.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Forceflow on February 09, 2012, 11:31:24 AM
Used 40D or 7D is the way to go for me. Have both and love both, if you've got the cash get a 7D, else try to get your hands on a used 40D. I don't much care for the 50D or 60D since those lack some features that I really liked on my 40D.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: RuneL on February 09, 2012, 12:05:19 PM
No.

I have the 1.3 crop and have gotten used to it during the last 7 years. But now it's time I think, tech has evolved and allows faster clearing of the data from the larger sensor area and the larger sensors are cheaper to make, you'll get used to not having the extra reach. Full frame is the future, but for now, and probably the next year or two I'll keep using mine and not be bothered by it. It simply doesn't matter.

Oh yeah: And your original thoughts on the crop lenses and such is one of the reasons that I have gotten many people very angry by asking them why the hell they bought EF-S lenses and that the new mount was a mongrel bastard that should never have been born.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on February 09, 2012, 12:35:04 PM
Crop sensors sell by far the largest number of DSLR camera bodies, so a ton of people want them.  Typically, they want to buy the newest and greatest model.

Thats why the camera manufacturers put out a new beginner model each year, even if it has only tiny changes, that makes it a new model, and they can raise the price a few hundred dollars.

Most of those who post here, like you, are a bit selective about their choice, and look carefully at their options. 

Some, like me, would recommend buying a older model body, and a upgraded lens, keeping the outlay the same.  Lenses are something to keep for many years, but bodies come and go.

However, if you do video, then new bodies often have some significant video improvements and might be just the thing.  Determine what you really need, and go for that.  Buy a upgraded lens if possible.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: adamfilip on February 09, 2012, 08:01:41 PM
No I don't want a cropped sensor.. its like asking does anyone want the same fuel economy but less horsepower..
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: funkboy on February 09, 2012, 08:26:46 PM
Personally I'd be extremely happy with 10-12 1DX pixels in an APS-C camera with a viewfinder a little better than the 7D (if that's possible, I know it's already 100%/1.0x).

I think the yearning for FF is mostly based on:


If the first two could be made very close to the 5D in a crop camera, then I think the DoF available at APS-C focal lengths is an acceptable compromise for a whole lot of people.  Digic 5+ will certainly help things out in the noise department...
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: wickidwombat on February 09, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Got my parents a 600D for xmas and my initial take on it
- quite plasticy build (lightweight so my mum is happy)
- flippy screen is great, makes taking low angle shots nice and easy. cant really see my parents diving around on the ground chasing angles
- built in flash control works well, needs line of sight but had it firing my 580s in a few minutes, really quick to set up. pretty cool.
- IQ same as the 60D and 7D takes pretty good shots when i whack some L glass on it. looks quite funny with a 70-200 or 300mm hanging off the front of it :)
- AF about the same as th 5D2 so nothing to write home about but fine for their uses
- Controls not bad to use I prefer the dials and joystick of higher end models

all up for the cheap price its quite a lot of camera that is'nt too shaby with the 18-55 kit lens perhaps once they get the hang of it all they might move up to the 17-55 f2.8 but for now they are happy with the kit lens.

I would imagine the 650D will improve on a few things. new sensor maybe
for the money though the 600D is pretty decent IMO
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: whatta on February 12, 2012, 05:30:23 PM
Crop sensors sell by far the largest number of DSLR camera bodies, so a ton of people want them.

I'd rather say  the majority wants relatively small and cheap camera. it happens to be apsc now, but it is not the customer's decision, even though many of them do not even know what the difference is, but currently there are no options (maybe a 6d or 8d as cheap FF?). I'd prefer FF but not in the size and price of a 5d.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: wickidwombat on February 12, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
Very true. My point was that cropped bodies are well provided for at the moment where as those after a non gripped full frame with more than one useable AF point are not.

Best summary in the least amount of words :D
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on February 12, 2012, 08:00:00 PM
Crop sensors sell by far the largest number of DSLR camera bodies, so a ton of people want them.

I'd rather say  the majority wants relatively small and cheap camera. it happens to be apsc now, but it is not the customer's decision, even though many of them do not even know what the difference is, but currently there are no options (maybe a 6d or 8d as cheap FF?). I'd prefer FF but not in the size and price of a 5d.

You might try reading Canons 2011 FY financial report.  Demand for DSLR's continues to increase while sales of point and shoot remain flat.  You will also note that in dollar value, DSLR sales far outstrip point and shoot sales. Canon's prediction doe DSLR sales was a whopping 69% of the camera sales dollars.

"Within the Consumer Business Unit, although Canon was affected by supply shortages caused by the quake and flooding, efforts to ramp up production and boost sales in response to robust demand resulted in significant
increases in year-on-year sales volumes for such digital SLR cameras as the competitively priced EOS Digital
Rebel T3i/T2i/T3, along with the EOS 5D Mark II and the new EOS 60D advanced-amateur models. As for
compact digital cameras, while such models as the PowerShot ELPH 100 HS/300 HS, PowerShot SX230 HS and
PowerShot ELPH 310 HS recorded healthy sales, unit sales for the year declined due to sluggish markets in
developed countries and the impact on production following the earthquake and floods."
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Beautor on February 14, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
For the type of photography I do (sports, kids, and some landscape) I enjoy having a crop camera that gives me a little more reach. I'm not a pro and am not selling prints, so at this point I'm very happy with the image quality of my 40D. At this moment the camera highest on my wish list is the 7D.

My wife on the other hand does a lot of studio/portrait type of shooting and would really benefit from a full-frame camera. Right now we don't have the money to get her there, but hopefully in a year or so we can upgrade her from her 60D into a 5D mkii. I seriously doubt (assuming I don't win the lotto) that we'll be in the market for the 5Diii or x or whatever it will be called.

Our biggest investments to date have been in upgrading our glass. I'd rather have good quality glass in front of an older camera than vice versa.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: AprilForever on February 14, 2012, 02:07:22 PM
I realise I am in the minority, but I am NOT currently in the market for FF body (not that I wouldn’t like one, just I have not got the glass or the money), but am dieing to replace my banged up 450D.
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

No, you are not in the minority! There are many out there who think this also.

No I don't want a cropped sensor.. its like asking does anyone want the same fuel economy but less horsepower..

That's a false analogy. Grad you full-frame camera, shoot an image of a distant heron (20 meters); from the same point, mount a 7D on the same lens, and shoot the same picture. The bird will be much larger in the 7D's frame. Go ahead and crop the FF in post processing; you will not have the pixels tow work with it the way you would with a 7D.

Crop sensors sell by far the largest number of DSLR camera bodies, so a ton of people want them.

I'd rather say  the majority wants relatively small and cheap camera. it happens to be apsc now, but it is not the customer's decision, even though many of them do not even know what the difference is, but currently there are no options (maybe a 6d or 8d as cheap FF?). I'd prefer FF but not in the size and price of a 5d.

If you want cheaper FF, get an old used film rebel for about 20 bucks. Otherwise, you won't get a cheaper FF. The 5D was revolutionary in part because it was a cheap FF. The "I want to kill the 7D to bring about a cheaper FF with 7D AF" cry many are echoing on these forums is not even realistic.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: DzPhotography on February 14, 2012, 02:09:10 PM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
well, I'm afraid that's not possible. EF-S lenses are only compatible with APS-C. You need FF lenses for APS-H... ::)
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: AprilForever on February 14, 2012, 02:17:50 PM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
well, I'm afraid that's not possible. EF-S lenses are only compatible with APS-C. You need FF lenses for APS-H... ::)

Indeed. Even if they did work, there would be serious vignetting. The short back focus might get in the mirror's way, anyway.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: dougkerr on February 14, 2012, 02:42:56 PM
All my sensors are at the original size as manufactured. Cropping them is really delicate work.

Best regards,

Doug
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: DzPhotography on February 14, 2012, 02:44:30 PM
All my sensors are at the original size as manufactured. Cropping them is really delicate work.

Best regards,

Doug
that made me lol in fact  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: briansquibb on February 14, 2012, 03:17:54 PM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
well, I'm afraid that's not possible. EF-S lenses are only compatible with APS-C. You need FF lenses for APS-H... ::)

Indeed. Even if they did work, there would be serious vignetting. The short back focus might get in the mirror's way, anyway.

Nikon have the capability to have DX lens on FX bodies. Anything is possible.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: wickidwombat on February 14, 2012, 08:02:03 PM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
well, I'm afraid that's not possible. EF-S lenses are only compatible with APS-C. You need FF lenses for APS-H... ::)

Indeed. Even if they did work, there would be serious vignetting. The short back focus might get in the mirror's way, anyway.

Nikon have the capability to have DX lens on FX bodies. Anything is possible.
I was wondering if this was actually physically possible.. waiting for neuro to chime in i'm sure he will know if an ef-s lens has enough coverage to use an APS-H sensor with a different mirror setup. of course they might do away with the mirror issue altogether ;)
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: bvukich on February 14, 2012, 09:36:54 PM
Yes, i want a cropped sensor... a 7D mk2 that use a APS-H sensor ( cropped :) ) and the ability to use EF-s lenses.
well, I'm afraid that's not possible. EF-S lenses are only compatible with APS-C. You need FF lenses for APS-H... ::)

Indeed. Even if they did work, there would be serious vignetting. The short back focus might get in the mirror's way, anyway.

Nikon have the capability to have DX lens on FX bodies. Anything is possible.
I was wondering if this was actually physically possible.. waiting for neuro to chime in i'm sure he will know if an ef-s lens has enough coverage to use an APS-H sensor with a different mirror setup. of course they might do away with the mirror issue altogether ;)

Nikon also has an extra 2.5mm to play with because of the larger register distance (46.5mm vs. 44mm).  That in conjunction with knowing DX glass will need to function on FX bodies, shouldn't be that difficult (although it eliminates the benefit of being able to intrude into the mirror box restricted zone with WA lenses).

I would also speculate that (and I'm going from memory here, so correct me if I'm wrong)...  Since Nikon originally only had DX bodies for digital, they wanted to provide "pro" quality glass for their existing customers, but knew some day they'd have FX bodies; they wanted to ensure a migration strategy.  Canon (ok, technically Kodak guts) on the other hand, started with full frame digital and bodies, and added crop; so they really didn't have the incentive to either provide top quality glass for crop, or provide any migration strategy to FF.

Yes, both Nikon and Canon had APS-C film bodies before digital, but nothing important ("pro" or volume wise) enough to be able to dictate lens strategy.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: bycostello on February 15, 2012, 03:32:58 AM
all horses for courses...  if i was wildlife photographer i'd want a crop lens too
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: briansquibb on February 15, 2012, 03:57:36 AM
all horses for courses...  if i was wildlife photographer i'd want a crop lens too

I think they do - a 1.3 crop
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Marsu42 on February 16, 2012, 05:09:53 AM
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

I really don't care if my body has a crop sensor or not - I'm interested in the functionality of the body and the pictures resulting from the sensor-lens combination. However, one advantage of ff is the large viewfinder.

The only thing that is very stange that I am currently only using ef lenses that aren't made for my aps-c body - this is historically understandable, and with older lenses it's just fine that only the center is used. But shelling out a lot of €€€/$$$ for an ef tele lens and thinking "great, on a crop body the reach is even further" is just ridiculous - I'm buying high quality glass and it's weight and will never use part of it.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: AprilForever on February 16, 2012, 07:34:00 AM
So what do folks think the next cropped bodies will be like? Is there anyone else out there who wants one?

I really don't care if my body has a crop sensor or not - I'm interested in the functionality of the body and the pictures resulting from the sensor-lens combination. However, one advantage of ff is the large viewfinder.

The only thing that is very stange that I am currently only using ef lenses that aren't made for my aps-c body - this is historically understandable, and with older lenses it's just fine that only the center is used. But shelling out a lot of €€€/$$$ for an ef tele lens and thinking "great, on a crop body the reach is even further" is just ridiculous - I'm buying high quality glass and it's weight and will never use part of it.

On a crop body, you're using the best part of the glass.
Title: Re: Anyone else want a cropped sensor?
Post by: Neeneko on February 16, 2012, 08:25:36 AM
I find the OP's initial comments to be rather amusing since, marketing-wise, people who like the smaller senors are in the vast majority and get preferential treatment by Canon... faster iterations, more bodies, etc.

If you want to talk minority.. my preferred sensor would be MF monochrome.. not that I can afford one of course ^_^ (at least not one that is not 5-10 years old).