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Messages - iP337

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EOS Bodies - For Video / Re: 6D not usable for shooting video?
« on: February 11, 2013, 05:16:27 AM »
Based purely on footage watched online, and not personal experience, I may have come to the conclusion that the 6D out of the box is not very usable for video.

Sigh. What exactly do you mean by not very usable? As in you literally can't use it? Perhaps your comment about out of the box alludes to a situation before you've attached a lens to the camera (in which case - yes you wouldn't get usable video)? Or as in the 6D suffers from the same issues as the 5dm2/7d/60d/600d in terms of moire and aliasing?

Because plenty of people made stunning work with all those other cameras - the video is a long way from unusable. Yes you have be careful to work around the camera's weaknesses in particular circumstances. And yes if given the choice between a camera that you have to do this with and another body where the same issues are far better managed (5dm3 or 1dx) then choosing the latter (more expensive) model might be worthwhile - especially if you're using the kit to make a living as a videographer.

But calling the 6D's video not very usable isn't very true.

You really don't need to insult my intelligence by asking if I was referring to whether the camera had a lens on it or not. By "not very usable" I mean exactly that. I wouldn't use it. Or not a stock, out of the box 6D as opposed to one that had an AA filter installed such as the one showcased in the video link I provided. Did you look at the video in that link? There wasn't a single thing it was pointed at that didn't strobe like crazy. I have probably shot a few hundred hours of footage with MkIIs, 7Ds, and 60Ds in both narrative and documentary settings and never gotten footage affected by moire and aliasing like that.

In page 3 of this thread I specifically asked if anyone out there had experience shooting on those cameras AND the 6D and could comment exactly on how the moire and aliasing compared. Nobody did. I would still prefer to hear from someone who has. Absent that, I am only able to look at footage online (not ideal) and draw my own conclusions. If you have personal experience that would shed light on this for me I would love to hear it.

Alright; I know as much as you about the 6D's supposed morie issue, but that link is SELLING a product that promises to help morie so I think it is very very very likely that they purposely found a shot that would moire then turned the in-camera sharpness all the way up followed by a test with the filter on and the sharpness turned all the way down. 

I sincerely doubt the 6D has worse aliasing and morie then the 5D2 or 7D, (how would Canon even go about adding extra morie artifacts?) All these 6D has extra morie videos are far more likely user error where the user doesn't know how to turn down the in-camera sharpness.

EOS Bodies / Re: 6D Likely Price Trend
« on: February 11, 2013, 03:37:01 AM »
Another 6D price drop for North America on ebay:

New $1747 + free shipping

I think all the price drops have to due with rumors of the 70D coming soon with better features, but i doubt the 70D will be that much better so these prices may snap back to $2000 after the 70D is officially announced.

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 6D Anti-Aliasing Filter
« on: February 11, 2013, 03:19:16 AM »
Are saying for sure the 5D3 doesn't line skip, it pixel binds like the GH2/GH3 and C300?

Panasonic has actually admitted to using 2x2 pixel binding plus some further pixel combining to get their 1080p resolution, which is not only low in morie but also still sharp:
DE: So you feel that the GH2's video quality is better than the 5D Mark II's?

Panasonic: Yes, it's not our engineers saying so. Many professionals have said that the GH2's video was better, even with a smaller sensor.

But compared to a professional camcorder, Micro Four Thirds is much better. It depends on the signal processing, but we also have so many pixels that we can do various kinds of pixel combining. Maybe this is some of why we're better than the 5D Mark II: we do better pixel combining. This is maybe why Canon prefers just an 8-megapixel sensor on their C300, because they have to combine just 2 x 2 pixels. Also, it's possible to read all pixels in real time.

DE: You mentioned that with the C300, they read out the entire frame in real time. So in a large format camera like the GH3, you are reading only some of the pixels; you don't actually read the whole array…

Panasonic: Yes, it's not possible to read out the whole array at 60p. So this means we have to do some pixel combining. We combine 2 x 2 pixels on the sensor, so that makes just one quarter the data that we have to read out. This makes it possible to read out at 60p. Then we combine again to get the 2 megapixel video image.

...and it would seem Nikon's new Toshiba sensor does the same too ( ) getting the same low morie and sharp image.

If anyone has a link confirming the 5D3 uses pixel binding please share because I am more inclined to believe that Canon just slapped on a stronger AA filter because the results look a lot like the 5D2 and 6D with these adapters which is lower morie and sharpness.

I want mixed card slots; the only issue with the 5D3 is that it does not support UHS-I. 
The 5D3 only supports class 10 SD card speeds so it's limited to 10MB/s speeds, UHS-I (which is supported in the 6D) can do up to 50 or 104MB/s which is faster than the 40MB/s rated speed of the 266x CF card that I've used with my 7D without issue so as long as they continue to support UHS-1 in their new cameras I would love a mixed card slot.

But that not why I'm here, check this out:

The Nikon D5200 is supposedly; video morie free, sharper, has a wider dynamic range and rather clean at ISO 3200.  DxO is rating the noise just after its ISO 1600 mark (6D is rated just after ISO 3200 and the 7D was rated just after ISO 800) and in DPReviews new Studio Comparison photos for the D5200 it looks like it has less chroma noise too.  This is really exciting me about the potential of the 70D, Nikon (Toshiba) has proved it could be done and Canon now needs something to compete with the image quality in this $800 body.

Pricewatch Deals / Re: Deals: Canon Deals at BuyDig
« on: February 07, 2013, 05:10:24 AM »
Oh Snap 6D for $1500 + a 24-105 for $750; those are good prices I wanna get it buuut I don't need it yet and if it's already hit that price range now just think how low it'll get by Summer :D

EOS Bodies / Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« on: February 07, 2013, 04:41:40 AM »
Please help me understand why people are excited about 6D? I cannot be excited about 97% VF, 1 x-pt AF, crippled 6D with wifi and facebook buttons. I will stick to a 5-year-old beloved 5D Mark II which is identical in IQ to Canon's newest sensors. Canon, you are not getting a dime of my money on your recent cameras. I have diversified my lenses so am not hostage to inferior sensors anymore.

I am not excited about the 6D, even though I might end up buying one in a year or so. Depending on what´s avaliable. How come I´m not excited? Well, I dont think they built the camera to be as good as it could be. As a tool, reviews on its own it is probably very ver capable. Looking at it compared to other cameras, not much so. It cost a shedload of money, and still my Rebel has a faster flash sync speed. Also, the VF is not 100%. Outside the 5D2 (discontinued) is it the only dSLR without 100%? And the shutter, with maximum speed of 1/4000. Why? They already have the shutter in 5D3, why not use this? It has a silent mode, like 6D, and can do 1/8000. Using this in another camera model would only make it cheaper (bigger production numbers).
Inferior autofocus, poor weather sealing, all is OK. If we need better here we got the 5D3. The VF and sync speed is to me clearly made to make it worse, to make it fit in a gap in the market, instead of making the camera as good as it can be.
I dont know... because from what I see, the 6D performs great, with IQ second to none. And that quite annoys me, because if I bought it now it would be a great companion, but back in my head I´d always hear the voice saying it could have, and should have, been a little bit better specced.
The top models should distance themselves from the cheap models by way way better specs, not by making the cheaper models deliberately worse. (does that make sense?)
Anyway, as a hobbyist, I might end up with the 6D some day, due to not wanting to spend endless amount of money on a camera body. Walking straight in to Canons trap :)
Oh, BTW, I do love my Rebel!

You make good points.  I agree more or less, though I am a bit excited about the 6D and plan to get one.  I think it has great potential (with magic lantern) and has great value for it's price.  I hated the 5D2 because it was overpriced, and I prefer to think of this as Canon trying to make good on that; the 5D2 was always worth $1500 and this is just the 5D2 with some of today's advances (noise ratios and video codecs mostly) for the price it should have been the whole time. 

The real reason for the 6D of course is that Nikon made the D600 and Canon knew that the 5D2 wouldn't stand a chance against it and it would grab that huge chunk of the market share the 5D2 was entitled to.  So they made an updated 5D2 with just enough upgrades to keep Nikon from taking all the sales but at the same time not take 5D3 sales.  But like I said, I prefer to see it as Canon making up for selling essentially the same thing a few months ago for an outrageously inflated price :)

EOS Bodies / Re: 6D Likely Price Trend
« on: February 07, 2013, 03:50:58 AM »
Wow, fast drop.  $1630 for the 6D these days.

It should drop even lower to the $1,500 price of the D600, which offers better image quality (except for at high ISO).

I'll buy in a month or so.

Sounds good man!  Where did you see that?  I always considered it to be worth $1500 but I'm still hoping to find a used one for around $1000 as a backup body lol, I can wait :)

Have you guys seen this?

I haven't read up on it much but my initial thoughts are; "Looks awesome; should provide great lowlight and dynamic... Diffraction?! Won't that hurt sharpness?"

Also Mikael is right, Canon sensors are lagging a bit, but have you tried using a Nikon (or a Sony for that matter)?  IMHO, what Canon lacks in their senors, is more than made up for in their ergonomics (and third party support).  Also (referring to that graph) wouldn't you expect a 15MP and 16MP senor to have better Dynamic Range to an 18MP sensor?  Everything's a trade off

I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.


Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

Get the 6D, it has lower noise and better everything (especially if you also buy a high speed sync flash unit and a 1 stop ND filter) ;-P


My concerns are purely from a perception standpoint, not technical.. I am aware that the 6d is technically superior to the 5dmkii but that doesn't mean that out of 100 images of portraits, the MKII might have more keepers because of the overall look that the image has

likewise the perception of an image being 'in your face' and foreward doesn't necessarily have to do with the sensor being technically superior.  I am more concerned with the visual feel that the camera produces and would like to know if any 5dmkii users have had a  sensation that the 6d was a bit too soft or produced flatter looking portraits (or the opposite)

Hi, I've seen this too.  Actually your concerns are from a technical standpoint :D you're asking about color depth and technically the 6D does slightly better (not as good as the 5D3 though). 

However the 6D does a lot better in signal to noise ratios; so it could be most people with the 6D right now are exploiting that feature and shooting in the 3200 to 6400 ISO range (I know I am lol), also if they shoot in auto the camera won't hesitate to use 3200 or 6400 ISO, the 5D2 on the other hand was noisy and ugly at 3200 so most people know to stay under 1600 with it.  Now the issue here is even though the high ISOs are cleaner in noise you still get a lower color depth at high ISOs on a 6D than on a 5D2 under ISO 1600 (remember the 6D was only "slightly" better at color depth) so this mean less color (flatter look). 

I think that's the main issue but the 6D also has a little more dynamic range in the lower ISO range too and you said you were viewing the images on flicker, well if you're using an sRGB monitor or HDTV (like me) you are stuck viewing a Rec.709 color space which is only meant for 5-7 stops of dynamic range and when you squeeze a 12 stop image into that without doing proper mid-tone curve adjustments it will squeeze that 12 stops together to fit into 7 which means (yup) a flatter image.  So the 6D might look very slightly flatter than 5D2 because of this too but I don't think it would be much of a noticeable difference so it's probably the high ISOs.  The best way to compare would be viewing prints that were printed using the AdobeRGB(98) color space.

I say get the 6D but for pictures when color is important keep the ISO low.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon 6D or 5D Mark III
« on: February 03, 2013, 06:12:38 AM »
Thanks Everyone for the advice. I decided to wait a little longer save some more money and go for the 5D Mark 3.

In that case you should sell your EOS 40D, 70-300/4-5.6 IS(low grade USM micro motor) and 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS(basic kit lens).

Keep the 17-40/4L and 100/2.8 macro (the 100/2.8 Macro is the same as the 100/2.8L macro except without IS) then get the 70-200/4L IS and the 50mm/1.4.

That set up should cover you for most anything.  The 100/2.8 macro should make an OK indoor sports and macro lens and if you have a 17-40/4 (for landscapes) and a 70-200/4(for portraits and outdoor sports) I'd get a fast prime over the 24-105/4L, because it's pointless to use anything between 40mm-50mm or 50mm-70mm so you just need to make up the gap with a 50mm and it looks like you need something for low light situations so the 50/1.4 is a more practical choice.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« on: February 03, 2013, 02:31:38 AM »
When was the last time an integrated grip body was $4500?

With the new tech it would be an about-face from existing pricing trends.

Ah, I guess you're right.  It doesn't necessarily need an integrated grip but I think I remember the 1D MarkIV hitting that MSRP before being discontinued and I assume it will priced above the 5D yet still have to compete with Nikon's $3000 high megapixel camera so I figured what better way than to give it a higher grade feel but pixels that small and a resolution that high I doubt Image Quality and Shoot Features would be close enough to 1D X's price range. 

Hmm the more I talk about this the more I think it'll end up being something like a 5D3 body with just a new 40+MP sensor for $4000 like a "4D" or "5D3s" lol. Hey, h.265 just got ok'd too and they promise 4k with it so maybe that's what Canon is waiting for; a 5D3 with a 44MP sensor and 4K H.265 video with 4fps bursts and a 4" LCD screen called the EOS-4D LOL Japan would hate it ;-P

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« on: February 02, 2013, 09:05:14 PM »
Here is what I expect for Canon's near future lineup:
  • EOS-Rebel T3i $500
  • EOS-M $800
  • EOS-Rebel T4i $800
  • EOS-100D(M2) $1000
  • EOS-10D(Rebel T5i) $1000
  • EOS-8D(70D) $1500
  • EOS-9D $1500 (Pro APS-C or Full Frame EOS-M)
  • EOS-6D $2000
  • EOS-7D $2500
  • EOS-7D C $3000(7D/5D body with C100 sensor)
  • EOS-5D $3500
  • EOS-3D $4500(40+ MP in 1Dx body)
  • EOS-1D X $6500
  • EOS-1D C $12000

What do you guys think? I think it would clean stuff up quite nicely then they could just start adding new marks to new models, I also think it gives multiple choices in the same price ranges and they would like it to keep higher prices bodies from slipping

It's best to consider all single digit EOS cameras to be "professional" level, although I wouldn't buy into the whole prosumer/consumer marketing speak, with good glass you can take great pictures and videos with even a Rebel "Txi"(xx0D) but the more expensive cameras just make it easier.  And a better analogy would be the 1Ds is to the 5D(high MP Full Frame for Studio and Landscape work) as the old 1D is to the 7D (a cropped fast shutter burst camera for Sports and Wildlife work).

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said in this thread. I doubt Canon will go with a new crop factor since they are heavily invested in the 1.62x EF-S lenses which supposedly already have some vignette issues on Sony's 1.5x sensors.  It will likely be improved micro-lenses, rear sensor lighting or better CR2 noise processing to makeup for APS-C's lack of signal to noise and dynamic range.

I think Mt Spokane Photography brought up a very good point, for a long time the "x0D" line has been Canon's main segment but Canon would have to make the 70D appeal to people planning on a used or refurbished 7D for it to sell well.  like what they did with the 6D, which is way better than 5D2. I actually haven't used the 6D yet (lol) but I've used (and hated) the 5D2 for a long time; I use the 5D3 and the best thing I found about it is the high ISO noise, I use it at 6400 most of the time but even at 25600 I found the noise to be appealing rather than the 5D2's 3200 ISO look, and the 6D is supposedly even better in that department.  The noise is not only less but also more appealing as it's mostly fine monochrome noise in the shadows (kind of like how film used to look) and not bands of red green and blue specks.  On top of that the 6D has far better video codecs, ergonomics and low light auto focusing (ok well I have used one, just not on a job yet so it doesn't count).  I always felt ripped off for buying the 5D2 for over 2k (Rebel features with a Full Frame sensor I used to say) but I find the improvements in the 6D to be worth $300 over a used or refurbished 5D2.

I agree with your assumptions.  If I may add to them, I assume the 7DmkII to have a 22.3MP APS-C senor, 41 cross-type at f/4 with 5 dual-diagonal at f/2.8, 10 fps bursts, 1080p60 H.265 codecs, dual cards with UHS-1 support, dual digic 5+, and clean 3200 ISO.  I expect the mid $2000 range, not only to sperate the line from the 6D and 70D but also to help keep the 5D3 up in the $3000 range.

 I'm optimistic with what I expect from the 70D(or will it be 8D lol), I assume it will "replace" the 7D just as the 6D has "replaced" the 5d2; but being realistic it will probably be like a 7D with built in wifi/gps, the Rebel T4i's 18MP sensor with STM lens support, a vari-angle touch LCD and UHS-1 card support.  Actually more like a better built T4i(maybe it'll be called a T40i) with wifi and 7D features, but if it doesn't have improved ISO noise (clean 3200) and at least a 19 point (cross type) AF system with 6 fps bursts I will not be buying or using it.  I hope it has the IPB and All-I video codecs but it looks like Canon is reserving those for the "xD" series cameras, so I'd just be happy with the better ISO noise I've seen in the 5D3/6D and willing to pay the $1500 that I assume it'll be priced at to keep the 6D from slipping down from $2000.

I just sold my 7D in anticipation of a new Canon APS-C body, my main concerns are Video and Sports photography so I'm hoping for a Canon replacement soon.

(+1 if you think I'm nerdy:)

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