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Messages - dilbert

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EOS Bodies / Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« on: September 20, 2012, 03:15:26 AM »
Sensor performance isn't everything... but, if I were to choose Nikon or Canon today, I wouldn't be choosing Canon.

Someone I work with today was wondering what camera to buy and the first word out of my mouth was "D600". When they said that was too expensive, I said "D3200". There's just no way I can recommend Canon gear to anyone and feel good about it.

EOS Bodies / Re: Who really is the target demographic for the 6D?
« on: September 19, 2012, 08:08:03 AM »
That's the 6d demography: People who would have bought a 5d2 after that has been phased out. It's for tourists (small, gps, wifi), landscape shooters (ff) and aps-c upgraders ($$$) who for some weird reason won't switch to Nikon when selling their ef-s lenses anyway.

What landscape shooter is going to buy a ff 6D with 20MP when for the same price they can buy a D600 with 24MP? If you don't have Canon lenses, you'd have to be crazy. The tourist thing I can buy.

Lenses / Re: Were EF-S lenses a bad idea?
« on: September 19, 2012, 07:53:42 AM »
Do suppose Canon regrets introducing the entire EF-S lens concept?


They've made you buy your lenses twice.

That's got to help the company bottom line.

This is something what CEO there thinks about - how to make a profit and not how to make people happy.

Question is, if they're not making reviewers happy then it seems unlikely that they'll make anyone that reads the reviews happy, how long can they go on being successful and top-selling?

The point here being that it isn't a small number of people bemoaning the 6D, it is a rather large chorus across the entire Internet. In the thread on this website linked to the "Preorders" for the 6D, not one person on the first page of comments bragged about having placed a pre-order for the 6D. When the 1DX and 5D3 came out, people were chest-beating over being early to get in line. What's not clear if this is just people finally waking up (or getting sick of) to Canon under-delivering or if it is just this camera that is completely underwhelming.

Again, Canon is doing fine. Their products make sense. So the call for the CEO to resign is nonsense.
And again, a question what are the other companies doing better than Canon?

Do you seriously not look at what other camera manufacturers are doing?

If you wanted to know what Canon could do better, you would start with everything that Magic Lantern does.

Possibly the best innovation that I have seen in the last 4 years has been the arrival of the possibility of "camera apps" (Sony NEX-6)

Things that Canon are missing out on, in no particular order:
- live view: zebra stripes
- live view: focus peaking
- control: activate MLU with shutter timer
- n-second variable self-timer delay (rather than 2 or 10)
- 100% magnification on image review for 1:1 display

Ah, I am forgetting Canon's biggest innovation that they manfully put on so many cameras:
- the direct print button

EOS Bodies / Re: Who really is the target demographic for the 6D?
« on: September 19, 2012, 03:03:00 AM »
Although many of you have complained about this new Canon DSLR model, I will explain my point of view, as I could be a great example of the 6D target:

- I come from a 550d (T2i) and I'd like to switch to full frame but without spending too much money, so Canon 6D seems like a reasonable option

- I don't give a S___ about the number and type of AF points. I almost exclusively use the center point right now, so having 9, 11, 39, or 61 AF points makes no difference to me. I understand they are very important for some type of photography, but for me one AF point is enough for 99.5% of my photos (and please, that doesn't mean I use my camera as a point and shoot, and I never use auto modes, maybe I'm not an "enthusiast" as some people here have described them, but I am not stupid)

- I _love_ that Canon 6d uses SD cards. I own plenty SD cards from plenty of devices (not only cameras), while my most recent CF card is 256 MB and 9 years old...

- 20 Mp is more than enough for me. I would have liked 22 Mp so 1080p video could be resized from the sensor size with a /3 factor, but anyway 22-24 Mp is something I don't need in my photos.

- We are still pending of some decent reviews, but on paper Canon 6d is much better than D600 for low light photography, both for high ISO and -3 EV AF. And 70% of my photos are indoor, so this is a strong reason for me to prefer 6d over D600

- What I would have liked? Pop-up flash and 100% viewfinder coverage, but no camera is perfect... I can live without that.

- What else I don't bother about? GPS and Wifi, although my mind is changing after seeing the Smartphone remote controller for 6d... I will certainly make use of it :)

So, am I the perfect buyer? Not yet... I think $2100 (which will be absurdly translated to 2100-2200€ in Europe) is still too much, but I'm assuming a price of $1700-1800 in a few months, and I can wait for that ;)

Yup, I think the "Canon APS-C upgrader" is the target market of the Canon 6D.

In what way is Canon a market leading DSLR division?

Innovation? No.
Image quality? No.
Features? No.
Ripping off customers? Yes.

Canon still has the largest market share in the DSLR market, so the position of the CEO is not in question.


Innovation: Is a megapixel race innovative? (D800), and translucent mirrors are also nothin new (just a way to differentiate Sony cameras from Nikon and Canon)

Innovations... the question I asked is how is Canon a market leader in DSLRs for innovation. What you've said kind of backs up my point - they haven't innovated in any specific way of significance.

Image Qualitiy: according DXOmark definitly not, but real world shooters are very happy with their 5D3 espacially in low light

Happy with low light amongst their owners does not mean that they are a market leader in that category.

Again, the statement made was that Canon is a market leader in DSLRs, my questions are searching for ways in which that is true.

and the Rebel-Line wins most comparisons in IQ compared to other DSLR's (again, not in synthetic DXOmark test, but in real world tests.

Real world tests by random people are generally not scientific in nature and thus it is hard to compare results of test A by person B with the results of test C by person D. Unless the same test is carried out by the same person, comparison is meaningless. Thus IQ tests by companies such as DxO and websites like dpreview are the only ones that have any real meaning.

Features: I'm not sure about what features you are talking about. There are features, and there are gimmicks...

I'm not referring to specific features but rather does Canon provide cameras with "market leading" features, to which the answer seems to be an emphatic "No".

Also interesting, if Canon cameras are as bad as you say, so why can they sell more cameras than Nikon at a higher price?

The 1Ds series matched the D*x in price ($7999?) at launch.
Other cameras from Canon have generally been cheaper than Nikon ... eg.
The 5D2 was less expensive than the D700 and traditionally, this is always how I've seen Canon.
Now Canon is more expensive (1DX vs D4, 5D3 vs D800).

This should have been posted on April 1...

I still hear plenty people wishing it had more DR (and MP) and believe it or not, some of them are pros. It's quite good, but ISO100 DR a trace worse than the old 5D2 and worse than the even older 1Ds3 is kinda unfortunate. But if you think that is awesome, then Canon won't ever bother. So yeah I like it a lot, but yeah I sure often wish it had better DR and when shooting wildlife I sure wish more MP and a crop mode and for video I sure wish it had the basics like zebra and focusing aids while live shooting and raw hdmi out and crop modes for wildlife.

Exactly. The 5D3 is not really an upgrade from the 5D2 in all areas and one of those where it is not, the sensor, is perhaps the most important. Yes, it does address some of the shortcomings but not all.

Similarly, the 6D does not appear to be an upgrade for 5D2 users either. For one, there are fewer MP in the sensor and in another, although there are 2 more AF points, the quality of the AF sensor has not been upgraded. And whilst there is now electronic leveling, it's only in one direction (WTF?!)

Also part of the point was to bring in newbies to FF and pricing it the same as the D600 which has better features and most likely a better sensor.... that is the issue.

It's a good idea, just given the competition it seems a bit under spec or over priced. That is the problem.

(with the 5D3 dipping to $2750 now at Adorama that is getting close to 6D price and offers a TON more)

Then again, I suppose there is a chance the GPS/wifi might entice newbies more than talk of image quality and AF and such, I guess Canon will see.

Yup! By itself, the 5D3 and 6D are good cameras but when you look at what else exists in the marketplace, it's a question of "huh?!" It's like the cameras were designed in a vacuum rather than than to compete with other companies.

Hmmm...  let me think.  Should the head of the extremely profitable, market leading DSLR division resign?

In what way is Canon a market leading DSLR division?

Innovation? No.
Image quality? No.
Features? No.
Ripping off customers? Yes.

Canon General / Is it time for the "CEO" of Canon's DSLR division to resign?
« on: September 18, 2012, 08:06:32 AM »
The revealing of the 6D has got to be one of the biggest anticlimaxes in Canon's recent DSLR history. Never has a camera wasted so much potential to score well. If Canon were alone and the only manufacturer producing a cheaper DSLR then it would probably be doing better amongst the Internet forums but unfortunately for Canon, there is the Nikon D600, alongside which the 6D appears as a "huh?"

The 5D Mark III also suffered a lot, primarily because of the rise in price without a commensurate rise in IQ. Again, if you took away the Nikon D800, it doesn't appear too bad but again, there is nothing exciting about it.

Now that all of Canon's cards are on the table for this year, you're left wondering what were they thinking? That Nikon and Sony would just stand by and not enter the market? Or did Canon simply underestimate what they've been able to do in CMOS sensor development?

The 1DX is out there by itself. It is a remarkable piece of equipment, tailor made for its target audience. And perhaps that's where Canon's problem is: it doesn't really know who the audience is for the 5D3 and 6D. Why wouldn't it know that? Because so many people bought the 5D Mark II, it became impossible for Canon to understand all the details of who was using it, how and why.

Thus the success of the 5D Mark II may have actually killed Canon in multiple ways. First they've become complacent because they've thought they could just tweak it a little here and a little there, increase the price and everyone would fall over themselves in love. That hasn't happened, in part because of the price and in part because it was just tweaking. In the second, as above, the camera has had such wide appeal that it became impossible for them to fully grasp why it succeeded and thus they didn't know how to repeat that success. This is likely just an accident of history as much as anything else. Thirdly, in not knowing who to listen to or why the 5D Mark II was such a success, they've ended up listening to the wrong folks about what camera Canon would need to succeed.

Thus given what the 5D3 and 6D have revealed to be, I think that the only option for Canon is remove the people who made the final decisions about which features should be in/out and the price for the camera. I think it is more than evident that they targets for both cameras simply wasn't high enough and thus Canon has underperformed.

Canon General / Re: Canon EOS 6D Preorders
« on: September 18, 2012, 07:50:05 AM »
Can you feel the love in this thread?

I think the amount of love in this thread echos the love from Canon.

Canon General / Re: Canon EOS 6D Preorders
« on: September 18, 2012, 02:11:23 AM »
You'd need to be very patient to pre-order, it's not due out until December! Meanwhile the D600 goes on sale tomorrow...

And that's assuming that Canon actually meet that target date. Given their ability to deliver on time this year, I wouldn't be willing to risk my life or job on getting a 6D in December.

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS xD line Future...
« on: September 17, 2012, 05:19:18 PM »
7D II 19mp aps-h (announcement 2013 september)


thanks for playing.

anything under 24MP won't get you a prize.

EOS Bodies / Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« on: September 17, 2012, 09:32:06 AM »
simple. they wanted to protect the 5DmkIII. if they sold you the same sensor, they wouldn't be able to do that. They also can't go high MP if they want to stay low cost so they had to cripple the 6D or risk nuking their own 5DIII.

imho that argument makes no real sense... the 7D has the same sensor as the 550D.

there is enough to differentiate the two models.
you don´t have to research and develop a new sensor for that.

But look at what happened with the 1Ds3 and the 5D2. The 5D2 pretty much killed the 1Ds3.

If the 6D had the same sensor as the 5D3 (or better) then you can bet your a** that the 6D would have taken a large number of sales away from the 5D3.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Canon Announces the Canon EOS 6D DSLR
« on: September 17, 2012, 09:29:28 AM »
Either way it's going to sell like hotcakes.

To whom, exactly?

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