April 23, 2014, 06:24:56 PM

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Messages - Orangutan

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31
I totally agree especially when you say:

[Think a lot of the comments here are fuelled by "professionals" feeling a bit insecure about second shooters :P ]

There are few professional wedding photographers on this forum and few in this thread.  Rather, I think a lot of the comments here are fueled by people with a moral compass.  I'd trust a lawyer for legal guidance, but not for ethical guidance (and I wouldn't trust a law student for either!).

Frankly, your original post and subsequent comments (including the ones that are obvious backpedalling) say much about your sense of ethics.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt: I don't think he backpedaled so much, as filled-in more details that were missing in his OP.  My guess is that he thought he understood that he had rights, and was seeking a price.  After some discussion, he may have learned that his assumptions may not have been right.  He dealt with it.  Being wrong happens to every human every day.  The question is how you deal with it.

32
And also Fir - just because something is "legal" doesn't make it ethical. 

This is an unfortunate confusion that many lawyers have, it seems as though many law schools actually teach that nonsense.  Some lawyers will eventually outgrow it.

It take a certain moral ambiguity to represent a murderer, rapist, or tax dodger... but I think we are starting to digress about what is wrong with the legal profession... Keep in mind you don't want to be guilty of a crime and your lawyer throws you under the bus.

I have friends who are criminal defense lawyers; and I detect in them no moral ambiguity at all, they're some of the kindest people I know.  The attitudes I hear are: defending the US Constitution, making the prosecutors do their jobs (perform due diligence) and try to prevent the defendant from being convicted beyond actual culpability.

Outside of their work you'd never know they were lawyers. And yes, they're good at what they do professionally, they just know how to separate work from non-work.

33
Hey fir0002...so for your first post on CR you have decided to:

I've dealt with many a lawyer in my professional career... I hate to say this... but he has the right attitude.  There is a certain hubris that accompanies a specific knowledge of the law...

That's certainly appropriate in legal dealings, but not at cocktail parties, picnics and informal camera forums.  The key is to learn to proper context switching.

34
And also Fir - just because something is "legal" doesn't make it ethical. 

This is an unfortunate confusion that many lawyers have, it seems as though many law schools actually teach that nonsense.  Some lawyers will eventually outgrow it. 

35
If you are a pro, and someone who tagged along with you on a shot to learn from you actually approached you afterwards with the OPs dilemma, but in this case, he deferred to your decision. What would you do or tell your apprentice?

It depends on what I thought our agreement had been, and how I made my money.  If I make my money with prints, I would expect that the assistant would not undermine me.  Of course, I would also be clear about having him hand over the raw files when we left the location, and I'd be particularly careful with an experienced portrait photographer.  Getting a few print-worthy photos at a wedding is not that hard; what's hard is getting a comprehensive set of high-quality photos that tells the story of the day.  If I make money on prints and have a pro portrait photographer in-tow, I'm thinking this guy's gonna have a small number of *really* good shots at the end of the day, and $$$$.


On the other hand, if I made my money on the location fee alone (e.g. handing over all decent photos on DVD after PP) then I wouldn't care.   

It's all about advance communication and agreement.

36
all the protectionist bull

Please explain how it is "protectionist" to honor an agreement.

37
I would say that wedding photography is more about organisation and relationships towards the subjects than pressing the shutter, especially so with digital and TTL flash.

I learned this lesson while pressing the shutter, and also while reviewing my photos later.  What did I miss that I could have gotten?  What views/angles worked?  How could I have positioned myself better?  Which guests should I have made a point to photograph better?  (the primary photog typically followed the bride, it was my job to make sure all the guests were in the final set of images, and to fill in the scenery he couldn't get)

That is undoubtably true; you're looking to improve your photography. Beingrequired to produce the professional results as the photographer and it's your sole responsibility to make it happen is a different thing altogether.

From your post I guess you have never been soley responsible for the successful photographic production of the 'big day'.

No, working as second only.  My response was to your suggestion that a new photographer be an assistant only at first, and not take any photos.  I felt I was able to get a sense of the organization and relationships while clicking the shutter as second-shooter.  I would not want to be the primary person responsible while going through that learning process, that's one reason I think the OP needs to keep on good terms with his local pro community: he still has some learning ahead.

38
Even if a guest has persuaded the bride and groom to let them 'shoot' the wedding (not my favourite, but it is their day, not mine), the photos of the 'guest second-shooter' 'belong' to the photog as well.

What's the definition of "guest second-shooter?"  Does this mean every guest with a smartphone is a second-shooter who must turn over the photos to the pro?

39
I would say that wedding photography is more about organisation and relationships towards the subjects than pressing the shutter, especially so with digital and TTL flash.

I learned this lesson while pressing the shutter, and also while reviewing my photos later.  What did I miss that I could have gotten?  What views/angles worked?  How could I have positioned myself better?  Which guests should I have made a point to photograph better?  (the primary photog typically followed the bride, it was my job to make sure all the guests were in the final set of images, and to fill in the scenery he couldn't get)


40
These are the questions:

First, in your jurisdiction, do you have any legal obligations to the pro you followed?  You should not take answers to this question from anyone on this forum: ask a lawyer.  Even without a written contract, there may be an obligation.

Second, was there any non-binding understanding, written or otherwise?  Did the pro talk to you about getting your pictures?

Third, what is your development path as a photographer?  One good wedding shoot doesn't make you a pro, and I'm speaking from experience as an occasional second-shooter.  Even if you have no legal obligation to the pro, you may still want his help, or the help of other pros to develop.  You've probably got a ways to go, and you don't want to have to climb that mountain solo.

As an addendum, this is also a test of your pro's ethics: if you approach him neutrally and say "the client contacted me and wants my photos" (without disparaging his), you'll find out what kind of person he is.  If he says "all your pictures are mine even though we never discussed it" then you've learned a relatively cheap lesson about where not to go for your continued development: this guy is not interested in your development at all.  If he says "hey, we had no agreement, they're your photos," then you've just established a trust relationship with a good guy, and it might lead to future collaboration and development.


41
EOS Bodies / Re: New DSLR and PowerShots in May [CR2]
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:48:31 AM »
Despite my almost delusional desire for a 7D2, to me it makes sense that the next camera will be a new Rebel.... after all, the T5i is a year old and overdue for a replacement.....

It could be a 70D with higher frame rate, more robust body, pro weather sealing.  That would add $500 to the price of the 70D, and it would be purchased by bird/wildlife/sports enthusiasts.   It should also hold its higher price tag longer than the 70D.

42
EOS Bodies / Re: New DSLR and PowerShots in May [CR2]
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:33:50 AM »
April Fools Day was yesterday...    :P

But today is not.  It may be a fool's post, but it is post Fool's.


43
EOS Bodies / Re: New DSLR and PowerShots in May [CR2]
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:14:56 AM »
If I held my breath I'd be dead.

This forum is turning into Cynic Rumors.  I wonder if people are happier over at Nihilist Rumors.   :-)

But seriously, for most people a new camera is a luxury, and we still have global economic problems.  Not a good time to introduce an upscale Toyota for mass production.

I'm hoping for the 7D2.  My next body will be either a 6D refurb or a 7D2 refurb; and the sooner it hits the shelves, the sooner it hits the refurb store.  :-)

44
A camera with 100x zoom is intended for entertainment only. Including voyeurs.

Quite true....

I'm sure "Robert Capa" would have made the photo of the birds copulating with a 28mm lens. :o Do not ask me how it would come so close. :P



Anybody could do as Capa did there, stage the shot with no enemy fire for miles, not saying he wasn't a true combat photographer, just that holding that image up as an example is fatally flawed. Unlike the many thousands of close combat images shot nowadays with 16-35mm lenses.

Was that a staged shot?


Some evidence suggests that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Soldier



45
Seriously, though: if the IQ, handling and performance are reasonable for the price, I might get one.  This is about as close as I'm going to get to a 1DX+600II+2x tele.


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