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Messages - V8Beast

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781
Ah man. I thought we were going to continue our discussion on Ferrari's F1 program, but if you insist on talking cameras....
 
Believe it or not you are not the only person who has ever used a camera.

You're  kidding me. I thought the guys I compete with on a monthly basis to pay my bills and feed my kids were using Etch A Sketches. No wonder they never run out of space on their memory cards. Are there DxO test results for one of those bad boys yet?

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I've shot the men's NCAA basketball tourney (and no, not from the stands :D) among other things.

I get it now. You're confused and licking the wrong camera's balls. Nikon has a special model for sports shooters called the D4 :D

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And believe it or not I'm not the only person who thinks more dynamic range would be nice to have at times.

Finally, something we agree on! I'll take all the DR I can get. However, I can't easily distinguish the D800's DR advantage over the 5DIII without resorting to a lab test. I'm apparently in the minority here, but I simply prefer the overall look (color, contrast, sharpness) of the 5DIII's files. The D800's samples look flat in comparison. 

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And believe it or not, some of them are actually full-time pros.

Ooooh, full-time pros. I'd like to say I'm impressed but I'm not. Whenever I talk to pros, those fools are so busy actually using their gear in the real world that most have never even heard about DxO tests. When are they going to learn about the joys of pixel-peeping and DR/ISO lab tests instead of trusting their own eyes and concentrating their efforts on becoming better photographers. I'm sure the first thing their clients do is blow the images their contributors submit up to 100%, and test its DR and noise. I don't see how they could possibly judge a great image from a junk image without doing so.   

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And it's a bit hard to use reflectors to fill in the interior of a redwood forest, maybe for some scenes, if you spend 15 hours rigging and thousands in expenses for a single shot, perhaps, sometimes, but then try it for a landscape expanding over a a few hundreds acres and it's a bit trickier still and then try that for every single possible such situation you may come across anywhere and.... and yes, sometimes a tripod a multi-snaps will do and sometimes a grad ND filter will do it, but not always. especially if you want details and not a wax-look.

So we've established that different situations call for different equipment or a camera that excels in different areas. Now we're getting somewhere :) I have a photo shoot with E.T. scheduled in the redwoods of Northern California next month, so maybe I'll rent a D800 for the day. 

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It's not the end of the world, but it's ridiculous to say it's pixel-peeping geek nonsense whenever it is something Canon is not best at, and absolutely critical when it's something Canon is best at.

Please. You're speaking to someone who ordered up a D800. Granted I will probably cancel it on Monday, but my point is that fixating on lab tests to the point where it takes precedence over judging an image based on overall execution, image quality, and artistic value is nonsense. I pity the fool who thinks his camera is great or thinks it's junk based not on the quality of the images it captures, but someone else's lab findings.

Seriously, that kind of fixation can't be healthy. The last time I was that fixated on something, someone ended up slapping a restraining order against me ;D

782
This one requires a fair amount of DR as well. When you're shooting with natural light, sometimes the light is harsher than you'd like, and it this case, it means you need a lot of detail on the shadow side of the cars and on the buildings. This is plenty of DR for a shot like this. Try to bring up the shadows any more, and the image will look flat, lifeless, two-dimensional, and boring. I suppose there is a lab test that measures for this sort of thing?


Other times, you have more control over the light to decrease the DR demands on a camera. There are these high-tech gizmos called reflectors. I think they were developed by NASA. I've heard you can use them for fill light to great effect.


I don't care how many stops of DR some pixel-peeping geek says a camera's sensor can capture. For shots like this, I'm using a reflector regardless of if whether I'm shooting with a POS Canon or with Sony's vaunted Exmor sensor.

783
and if you were really such a get out and shoot guy you might realize how 3 stops dynamic range can make a huge difference, maybe it doesn't for what you shoot, but then maybe that just shows that some of the pixel peeping geeks actually get out and shoot a lot more things than you huh?

In your attempt to be a smart@ss, you just posted the funniest line I've ever read by a pixel-peeping geek. Yes, I do dabble in photography that requires lots of dynamic range from time to time.









Somehow I manage even with $hitty Canon sensors. Now do you care to share some of your images that illustrate how effectively the DR of Sony's Exmor sensor can enhance your photography :)?

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i guess the Ferrari test team has no lab huh?

Do you really want to use a car analogy with me? Of course Ferrari has a test lab. The big dog F1 teams like Ferrari and McLaren spend $300-plus million a year on R&D. Wind tunnels, automated dynos that simulate upshifts and downshifts of an entire race, etc. You name it, they test it. During a race, the two-way telemetry on an F1 car wirelessly streams gigabytes of data back to the lab every second so engineers can analyze it in real time.

That said, all that lab work doesn't mean $hit without real-world track testing. Furthermore, the only reason why teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars on lab testing is to they can more effectively develop parts for real-world testing. As it stands, the main reason why F1 teams are spending so much money on testing in the lab is because the FIA banned off-season and in-season testing a few years ago. Teams would much rather spend that money testing their cars on track in real-world racing conditions, but they can't, so they resort to lab testing instead. Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent in the lab just so they can make the most of the precious few days of real-world track testing that they're allowed. 

On the other hand, pixel-peeping tech geeks seem more interested in lab tests than actually using their cameras.

784
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« on: March 23, 2012, 11:07:08 PM »
So in summary, when you compare the new Nikon that is just hitting the market, it outperforms a Canon 5d2 that was designed in 2008.  Mother of god, who would have guessed?
No. It beats everything recent. And this is the terrible high mp sensor everybody dismissed as being noisy and bad :-)

Yes, there were lots of Canon fan body in denial, but I think the D800 has proven itself as having a great sensor. To my eyes, however, the real-world benefits of its awesomeness are tough to spot in most of the images taken with it so far.

785
OOC jpgs are really used as previews by us, so RAWs are really that count. Our shop does a lot of PP, so having high DR and high res that D800 has is advantage. Bring out all contrast and color from the RAWs. But for snapshots at low light, 5D3 jpgs are sufficient. Cheers.

I'm referring to sample raw files between both bodies, not jpegs. Of course more DR is always an advantage, but for some reason the D800's files don't look that great to me.

786
seriously?
The D800 beats it by almost 3 stops, yes THREE, at ISO100.
The 5D2 had a TON of room to improve at ISO100. At high ISO there is no possibility to improve by that dramatic of a degree since it;s not theoretically possible, but at low ISO they had tons of room to improve. Maybe Exmor patents make it tricky, but even the Exmor-less D4 improved ISO 100 by over a stop.

Dude, I'm not talking about lab tests. I'm talking about the good old fashioned way of judging image quality. Just look at an image and determine its visual impact, technical proficiency, and artistic value. That's how everyone other than pixel-peeping tech geeks judge IQ. Just about every pro that I know that shoots Canon (5DII or 1DsIII) does so because they like the look of the files, not because of how well their cameras perform in a lab.

Yes a three stop advantage is huge. Now that the real world samples are trickling out, I just don't see it translating to better IQ.

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So 5DC to 5D2 wasn't much of a sensor upgrade but 5D2 to 5D3 is a huge sensor upgrade??

Never said that, buddy. The 5DC to 5DII wasn't enough of a jump in terms of AF, FPS, and overall IQ for me to justify upgrading based on my style of shooting. I didn't specifically single out the sensor in my post. As far as the overall package is concerned, the 5DC to a 5DIII is a huge jump. I care more about the entire camera package as a whole than sensor technology alone.

787
A non controlled environment. I am coming from a Canon 60d and the noise is terrible above 800 without a speedlite and even then way to noisy. I would hope such a leap to FF and better technology would yield much better results just unsure if the d800 is the way to go or the canon 5d3. So far I have not seen the tremendous noise free 25k iso images in reviews actually I think it drops off at 6400 and continues from there. That's not much of an increase considering they are talking native 25k iso. So I was wondering if nikon was doing the reverse and saying 6400 with a true ceiling of 12800 or at least some very detailed images below 800. I do shoot in all kinds of light so that is why iso is so important. I also need a larger DOF since usually there are more than one person in my shots.

I'm not trying to sound like a smart@ass, but would it be at all possible to match up your 60D with a tripod or a Speedlite? I just don't see why anyone needs to spend $3,000 to $3,500 to take family portraits. By "larger" DOF, do you mean shallow or deep DOF?

788
Without a doubt, D800 with lab proven DR 14+, its ISO 2800+, and a 36mpx detail totally blows its competition away. Heck, it is a $10,000 camera for less than 1/3rd price! No, good photographers will not get worse by using it... on the contrary, bad photographers might gain advantage by its cropping ability and other unmatched features.

Is it just the specs and lab tests of the D800 that you find so impressive, or do you find the D800's image quality equally as impressive?

All of the above!

D800 has amazing samples and amazing lab results. What more can you ask for?

Some more contrast and color. The 5DIII's files look sharper to me as well. All the D800 images I've seen so far look flat and lifeless. The D800's spec sheet is very impressive, but its images just aren't doing it for me. I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not one of those guys that gets a hard-on by blowing up an image up to 100% and oogling at the minute details that won't be reproduced in print anyways. 

My 5DIII shipped yesterday, and I'm wondering why I haven't cancelled by D800 pre-order yet. At this point, the only reason I haven't done so yet is because it's shabbat, and B&H is closed until Monday :)
 

789
Another set of flat, lifeless D800 images. Where's the color and contrast?

They are reserving it for the D900  :)

Good one!

790
Without a doubt, D800 with lab proven DR 14+, its ISO 2800+, and a 36mpx detail totally blows its competition away. Heck, it is a $10,000 camera for less than 1/3rd price! No, good photographers will not get worse by using it... on the contrary, bad photographers might gain advantage by its cropping ability and other unmatched features.

Is it just the specs and lab tests of the D800 that you find so impressive, or do you find the D800's image quality equally as impressive? 

791
I am saving for the 5DM3 but I will be happy if the pictures come close to these D800 samples:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1097553

incredible detail.  Wow.

Another set of flat, lifeless D800 images. Where's the color and contrast?

792
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« on: March 23, 2012, 09:42:22 PM »
. . . .Again, I applaud Nikon for developing a camera that scores so well on a silly lab test, but I don't need a silly lab test to distinguish a great image from a junk image.. . .

It's only "silly" if you use the tests to show what a great photographer you will be. . . .

Sadly, this is precisely what a lot of people do.

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but it is not silly if you want to learn something about the actual sensor that is responsible for why your camera happens to be great . . pixel peeping notwithstanding.

I can live with that. However, what we're witnessing is Canon shooters saddened by how well the D800 performs in lab tests, not how much better the D800 actually performs in real-world shooting situations. If you don't pixel peep, it's hard to tell the difference between the 5DIII and D800. Even when you do pixel peep, people reach different conclusions based on their biases. If this is someone's idea of enjoying photography, I find it quite pathetic.

793
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« on: March 23, 2012, 08:11:20 PM »
I congratulate Nikon on producing a stellar camera in the D800. Now can someone please post sample images taken with both a D800 and a 5DIII, where the D800 made them a better photographer? I have a feeling that I'll be waiting for a long time.

The DxO tests are amusing, but I don't see what's so fun about fixating on such silly lab tests instead of using a camera for its intended purpose: creating art! I'd venture to say that most pro photographers - those creating beautiful images with their gear - have never even heard of this DxOMark nonsense. IMHO, trying to objectively quantify the value of a subjective medium (photography) is preposterous.

I think Megan Fox is one hot momma, and I can fantasize all day about inappropriate things I'd like to do with her, but I can't tell you why I think she's hot. She's just hot, and it's as simple as that. Maybe someone can develop a biometric facial scanning device that attempts to objectively quantify which women are hot, and which aren't. The tech geeks will have a field day with that one, and remain virgins at the same time ;D

The same goes for image quality. Again, I applaud Nikon for developing a camera that scores so well on a silly lab test, but I don't need a silly lab test to distinguish a great image from a junk image. I find it sad that instead of people posting sample images of the D800 and saying "wow, that looks great" they can't get over some lab tests.

794
EOS Bodies / Re: 5DIII pre-order thread
« on: March 23, 2012, 04:36:40 PM »
B&H just shipped my order out (body only) yesterday evening. Looks like I made the first batch :) The strange thing is that B&H always sends me an e-mail once an order ships, but they didn't this time around. That said, my camera will be here next week so I can't complain.

795
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 5D Mark 3 Queue @ B&H
« on: March 23, 2012, 04:29:48 PM »
Nevermind. Mine just shipped out yesterday evening! B&H usually e-mails me a shipping confirmation on all my orders, but not this time. Weird.

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