April 16, 2014, 07:37:36 AM

Poll

For what reasons do you want a FF mirrorless on the market?

It will be smaller, thinner, lighter than my current DSLR, something I can put in my pocket (like a NEX/EOS-M)
26 (28.9%)
I want a shorter Flange-distance so I can use my collection of FD/FL/Rangefinder glass on digital FF (and can't afford a Leica M)
5 (5.6%)
I only ever use Live-View / shoot videos, so a mirror is pointless
3 (3.3%)
Taking away the mirror means less mechanics to break, and less cost
3 (3.3%)
I want one, but only when contrast-based or phase-in-sensor AF is as fast as phase-detect-via-mirror AF
17 (18.9%)
I probably won't get one, at least not straight away, but i'm a gear-head and will sleep better knowing one exists somewhere (besides the Leica M)
4 (4.4%)
I'd buy a Leica M if I could afford one, but having AF (no matter how slow) with my current EF lenses would be better
6 (6.7%)
I don't want an FF mirrorless, they'll always be too expensive for me (presumably so will DSLR-sized FF)
3 (3.3%)
I don't want an FF mirrorless, I'd rather my EOS-M/NEX-sized APS-C and FF in DSLR-sized 6/5/1D bodies
23 (25.6%)

Total Members Voted: 90

Author Topic: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?  (Read 7117 times)

dr croubie

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Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« on: November 22, 2012, 03:31:49 AM »
So with all the talk of "who's going to bring out the first FF Mirrorless and when", I'm interested to know *why* people want some so badly.
The options are pretty self-explanatory, but I thought I'd give some counter-arguments to each option to start with:
- 1/2: Yes, potentially mirrorless can be thinner. But taking out the mirror and reducing the flange distance can lead to other problems, with the greater angle of incidence. Leica has overcome that problem, at least some of it, with fancy microlens arrays, but still problems exist that must be fixed in PP. Read this and this for examples of these problems. Of course, you can use your current EF lenses on any potential-future FF mirrorless body, but then the combo won't be much smaller than using it on an 1100D now.

- 3/4: Yes, taking away the mirror means less parts used in manufacturing and less potential for things to break. But you really think a bit of a mirror (which they've had 40 years of experience and R&D making) adds that much to the cost of a camera?

- 5: It will happen. ... ... eventually. For now there's no denying that phase-detect is faster than phase-in-sensor and contrast-AF. But with enough R&D it will happen.

- 6/7: That's somewhere about where I am.

Any other potential reasons to want an FF Mirrorless that i've missed?
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Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« on: November 22, 2012, 03:31:49 AM »

Half Way To Nothing

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 04:23:46 AM »
You need an option for "I don't want a FF Mirrorless"
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Patrick

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 04:33:59 AM »
You need an option for "I don't want a FF Mirrorless"
+1

verysimplejason

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 04:36:29 AM »
There's already an FF mirrorless.  Sony A99.  FF, mirrorless in DSLR form factor.

pakosouthpark

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 05:36:09 AM »
if the cost is much less and does most of the things of a 5d why not? lighter, smaller - for travelling is perfect.

dr croubie

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 05:44:24 AM »
You need an option for "I don't want a FF Mirrorless"
+1

Yeah, i was going to, then forgot it out of the poll...
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PVS

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 06:52:16 AM »
I want one, yeah, unfortunately they've already designed one with my favorite focal length - it's called RX1 and sets you $3k back.

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 06:52:16 AM »

Timothy_Bruce

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 07:24:20 AM »
There's already an FF mirrorless.  Sony A99.  FF, mirrorless in DSLR form factor.
It is not mirrorless! The mirror is only fixed and there is no OVF.

mb66energy

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 08:46:03 AM »
I am really interested in a moderately priced and compact FF mirrorless with a large capacity battery (750+ exposures per charge). OVF should be optional to keep footprint small.

Please use a shorter flange distance but EF mount with sth. like a 20mm extension tube as adapter for EF lenses - which can be used for other purposes.

Please give us an aperture ring around the mount base.

Please give us a status display showing f, t, ISO, charge, free data space, format, drive mode, exp. meter characteristics, color temp. and exp. compensation PERMANENTLY (e-ink display?).

Don't make it a luxory article but a simple but tough and reliable tool. Without mirrorbox etc. it should be easy to build such a camera for roughly 1200 $ / €.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 02:01:11 PM »
The issue with a FF mirrorless camera with a shorter flange back distance is that a new family of lenses will be needed, and they will be more expensive than the existing EF lenses.  Wide angle lenses will be inferior (You can't bend light that much without many lens elements).
The most practical is to make a pellix type lens, but Canon has tried that a couple of times and they have not sold well.  With live view on all the newer DSLR's, there is little practicle advantage to mirrorless for the masses, and Canon is a mass producer of cameras, not a specality camera company.  Thats not a judgement, just a fact.

mb66energy

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 02:24:48 PM »
[...]
Wide angle lenses will be inferior (You can't bend light that much without many lens elements).
[...]

After my information it should be much easier to produce a high IQ wideangle if you are not restricted to place the last lens element before the maximum protrusion by the mirror of an SLR.

SLR wide angles are always retrofocus constructions which shift lens planes behind the physical lenses- to keep the mirror space clear. Why have 85mm lenses and focal lengths above such extraordinary IQ from center to corner (o.k. in most cases)? They are not retrofocus so you don't have to struggle with extreme lens materials or lens geometries.
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dr croubie

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
I've always thought that mirrorless gives better wide-angles than retrofocus.
Or at least it makes them smaller and lighter to give decent IQ.
Look at the size of the Canon, Samyang, Nikon, and the new Sigma 35/1.4. They're all huge, relatively.
Then look at the diminutive size of the Summilux 35/1.4.
Or compare any Biogon design, they almost touch the film in most cases (so you can't even use them on a CL/CLE). In that case Flange Distance is irrelevant, the lens only sticks out 40mm from the film/sensor plane. And biogons are some of the sharpest lenses ever designed with 0% distortion...
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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 03:11:59 PM »
- 5: It will happen. ... ... eventually. For now there's no denying that phase-detect is faster than phase-in-sensor and contrast-AF. But with enough R&D it will happen.

... and once it does, we'll be on digic8 and have an electronic viewfinder you cannot tell from an optical one, though it'll drain power which is the tradeoff. That means all the information and assist you want in the vf, zebras, focus peaking, ..., and af ("points") everywhere. And 100fps if you want it because there's no mirror to flip.

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 03:11:59 PM »

Dylan777

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 03:12:26 PM »
Primary reason I want a FF mirrorless is when I travel over sea. AF speed is not important in my case, since I'm only do still shooting. I DO NOT wish to mount my current 16-35 II, 24-70 f2.8 II, or 70-200 f2.8 IS II on that mirrorless. IT LOOKS STUPID

Just give me some pancake lenses: 14-24 f2.8, 35mm,50mm,85mm, and/or 100mm at f1.4 or bigger. I don't mind building another set of lens for mirrorless body, as long I can get decent IQ under low light and travel friendly. I'm all in.

If I need speedy AF, then I will take my 5D III with me.
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robbymack

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »
Primary reason I want a FF mirrorless is when I travel over sea. AF speed is not important in my case, since I'm only do still shooting. I DO NOT wish to mount my current 16-35 II, 24-70 f2.8 II, or 70-200 f2.8 IS II on that mirrorless. IT LOOKS STUPID

Just give me some pancake lenses: 14-24 f2.8, 35mm,50mm,85mm, and/or 100mm at f1.4 or bigger. I don't mind building another set of lens for mirrorless body, as long I can get decent IQ under low light and travel friendly. I'm all in.

If I need speedy AF, then I will take my 5D III with me.

My thoughts exactly. I think it's going to be tough for a manufacturer to do this at a reasonable price, but seeing as Sony took on Leica with the rx1 they don't seem afraid to give it a chance. I'd bet they come out with something with interchangeable lenses in the next 12-24 months.

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Re: Why do you want a FF Mirrorless?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »