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Author Topic: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]  (Read 13568 times)

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Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« on: December 30, 2012, 08:46:46 AM »
Big megapixel
We’ve heard previously about a 46mp image sensor that exists and is in testing. We’re now told that multiple large megapixel sensors exist, and one that is sure to reach market is a 39.3mp sensor.

There is also a suggestion that we will see DIGIC VI processors before the larger megapixel camera(s) reach the market in late 2013 or early 2014.

This comes from a new source, so take it with a grain of salt.

I’ve also heard from two different people that the earthquake that happened in Japan is still affecting manufacturing and development of new products at Canon, though Canon would never officially admit to such a thing.

As far as new stuff goes, we should see the APS-C segment and lenses addressed before a large megapixel camera arrives on the scene.

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« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 08:49:06 AM by Canon Rumors »
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Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« on: December 30, 2012, 08:46:46 AM »

SPL

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 09:15:23 AM »
I like that interesting lens on the EOS 3D......

candyman

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 09:32:48 AM »
Yes, a 40mm f/1.2L next to a 50mm f/1.2L?
40 seems to become a new standard? - next to 40mm f/2.8


And what will that do to 35mm f/1.4L?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 09:37:01 AM by candyman »
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pedro

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 09:49:09 AM »
As an absolute non-tech person compared to members like neuro and many others: what do these rumored faster digic versions and higher mp mean in relation to a newer and more improved sensor tech, which was discussed quite a few times this past year? Or does the post tsunami effect contribute to the fact, that Canon were not able to improve their sensor tech as much as some folk were hoping for?

Neuro..are you out there somewhere to explain it in a plain and simple way to folk like me?
Thanks and cheers, Pedro
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 09:57:00 AM by pedro »
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matukas

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 10:03:21 AM »
What about that Canon multilayer sensor patent some time ago?
Could it be this, what materializes into big Mpixel?

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 11:33:02 AM »
I'd be suprised if Canon has not built many prototype sensors of various mp ratings.  They are said to be actively pursuing the rear lit technology too, so those will exist.
 
However, I expect that they are prototypes, you don't go into production on multiple sensors unless you are committed to using them, since production startup costs are very high.
 

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 12:12:41 PM »
As some here probably already realize, 39.3 megapixels is kind of a magic number, since its resolution is probably 7680 (i.e.,1920 X 4 and 3840 X 2) horizontal by 5160 vertical. If you want a C300-style 2 x 2 binning sensor, except capable of being cropped to 3840 X 2160, that is the resolution you would want.

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 12:12:41 PM »

pedro

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 12:18:44 PM »
I'd be suprised if Canon has not built many prototype sensors of various mp ratings.  They are said to be actively pursuing the rear lit technology too, so those will exist.
 
However, I expect that they are prototypes, you don't go into production on multiple sensors unless you are committed to using them, since production startup costs are very high.

@Mt Spokane: Talking rear lit sensors, I guess within three to four years time (1Dx, 5D3 life cycle) we might probably see some (r)evolutionary improvements then. Or will the first outing of such a kind of sensor be presented in a Rebel? The high MP count body might offer an attractive platform as well. So, if I am not totally wrong, high ISO IQ could improve more until 2015. Not higher ISOs, but maybe 51k ISOs equivalent to 25 or 12k ISOs. What do you think?
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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 12:21:18 PM »
As an absolute non-tech person compared to members like neuro and many others: what do these rumored faster digic versions and higher mp mean in relation to a newer and more improved sensor tech, which was discussed quite a few times this past year? Or does the post tsunami effect contribute to the fact, that Canon were not able to improve their sensor tech as much as some folk were hoping for?

Neuro..are you out there somewhere to explain it in a plain and simple way to folk like me?
Thanks and cheers, Pedro

A new DIGIC will almost certainly be faster, probably have more capabilities and designed around capturing higher megapixel sensors, and also probably built on a smaller process node which can helps reduce power requirements and increase processing power. My bet is that they need a chip with more readout lines, and more computing power to handle a really high megapixel sensor, and be more than a few frames per second.
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pedro

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »
Thanks Drizzt321. So I just hope, that Canon keep the MP count at about the same level in the next 5D body, as a faster DIGIC contributes to better high ISO IQ, if I got it right. My 5D3 does great so far. As a "non flash purist" I am all for high ISOs, the darker the room the better.
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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 12:57:00 PM »
As an absolute non-tech person compared to members like neuro and many others: what do these rumored faster digic versions and higher mp mean in relation to a newer and more improved sensor tech, which was discussed quite a few times this past year? Or does the post tsunami effect contribute to the fact, that Canon were not able to improve their sensor tech as much as some folk were hoping for?

It's not enough to just come out with a new sensor, a camera is a system and to do things like doubling the amount of pixels you affect a lot of components. You push the shutter and the processor reads 235Mbytes from the sensor, processes it, and stores it as a compressed raw file... 4 frames per second and you are looking at a gigabyte per second into the chip, 8 frames per second and you are looking at 2 gigabytes per second read speed.... that's just gotta need a new processor, and I would be suprised if a digic 6 did not come out soon, after all, the digic 5 is now in point/shoots and rebels.

There is a lot of image processing involved in taking a picture, particularly with noise at high iso's.. bigger files and the quest for better noise levels means greater demands for computing power... and that can mean more heat and battery drain unless newer technologies are introduced.

Then there is storage....faster cards, more buffer memory, or some combination would be needed for the higher data rates for storing larger files...

And don't forget focusing.... lots of work being done there and lots more to come..... what's the good of a higher megapixel blurry photo....

So Yes, I would say that a 39.3Mp sensor exists, and I would bet that a digic 6 exists...but until the bugs are worked out and a system that brings everything together is developed it will remain R+D.... As soon as it works you will see anouncements and as soon as the production lines are rolling you will see it released.
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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 01:17:52 PM »
I'd be suprised if Canon has not built many prototype sensors of various mp ratings.  They are said to be actively pursuing the rear lit technology too, so those will exist.
 
However, I expect that they are prototypes, you don't go into production on multiple sensors unless you are committed to using them, since production startup costs are very high.

@Mt Spokane: Talking rear lit sensors, I guess within three to four years time (1Dx, 5D3 life cycle) we might probably see some (r)evolutionary improvements then. Or will the first outing of such a kind of sensor be presented in a Rebel? The high MP count body might offer an attractive platform as well. So, if I am not totally wrong, high ISO IQ could improve more until 2015. Not higher ISOs, but maybe 51k ISOs equivalent to 25 or 12k ISOs. What do you think?
The patent claims it benefits sensors APS-C and larger, so we should might see it in FF first.
Basically, it will reduce noise, particularly at low ISO, if I understand it correctly.
 
If its going to happen, it will be soon.  In a few years, other processes will be developed.
 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:19:56 PM by Mt Spokane Photography »

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 01:23:12 PM »
...
what do these rumored faster digic versions and higher mp mean in relation to a newer and more improved sensor tech, which was discussed quite a few times this past year?
...

Compared to the 5d Miii and the 1 DX you have twice the pixels so you need (at least) to double the computing power if you want to get the results of your image as fast as with the current cameras. Just if you do not have a high frame rate it is interesting to get your image preview on the screen and do some 1:1 scaling to check focus etc. (This means the calculation of 39 000 000 full color pixels with roughly 120 000 000 byte rgb data from ~ 10 000 000 red, 10 000 000 blue and 20 000 000 green pixels (resulting in 80 000 000 byte raw data for a 16bit analog-to-digital-converter), if the sensor is a bayer sensor).

If sensors have higher dynamic range you have to calculate with (lets hope) 14 bit instead of 12 bit data -- another 20 % increase in computing needs.

Better algorithms might help to reduce artifacts and noise but need more computing power.

CPUs for cameras use "hard wired" algorithms which are "printed into the sensor design" which makes things much faster than software programmed algorithms. So if new algorithms are implemented for a new sensor, you pair a "matched" CPU with that sensor.

A really improved sensor in fact can reduce computing power: less noise, perhaps a three layer RGB sensor without the need for bayer demosaic procedure! But I am shure that we have to wait a long time for real improvements.
As far as I know the quantum efficiency of current CMOS sensors is near 30 percent and more or less a stable limit. The only thing which can be improved is to omit the RGB filter arrays resulting in a factor 3 in sensitivity (theoretically).

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 01:23:12 PM »

c.d.embrey

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 01:31:35 PM »
Now that Canon is in Medium Format territory, will they also make this a Four-Shot camera ??? Just think how awsome 157.2 megapixel moiré free images would look  :)

Here's the link to the Hasselblad HD4-50MS four-shot  http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h4d-50ms.aspx

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 03:58:50 PM »
Lot of confusion here, some comments:
Digic V (+) first appeared in the 1D X spec, but was first available in compacts (not that Digic V or any other Digic is exactly the same in all cameras). So the use of Digic V in compacts don't mean they are ready with a new version for the high end.

Digic V is only slightly over a year old while Digic IV lasted much longer. Canon don't seem to increase the number of the Digic-processor every time they make some slight improvements, some other companies do however. Anyway, Canon could easily improve Digic V (and do) without changing the name.

1D X already have 14 bit ADCs and manage 12 fps with 18MP, they could easily make a 39MP model and manage 6 fps even with the current version of Digic V+ used in the 1D X. Processing speed always increase over time within the same processor generation so by the time a 39MP model is out they'll probably be able to handle even more than 6 fps.

These comments don't mean that there wont be a new Digic, only that the current one is fairly new by Canon's numbering standard and they dont have to introduce a new design to improve speed.

Readout lines and speed are a property of the sensor, not Digic, but the Digic processor must of course be able to handle the data rates from the sensor.

One of the possibilities a new fabrication technology give is to move ADCs onto the sensor like Sony do in their sensors. This is essential for Canon if they want to (or feel they have to) catch up to Sony on DR at low ISO.

There might be several reasons that Canon use fairly old technolgy for their sensor fabrication. One possibility is that it's costly to switch too often, but I suspect that Canon is fairly happy with their current cameras as they still has the highest dSLR market share.

If I had any influence on Canon's decision I'd say that fixing the AF-speed on Eos M would be the highest priority. Then a D800 competitor, on both price and pixel count. I'd also put 1080p60 high on the list, opreferably on all cameras.

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Re: Does a 39.3mp Sensor Exist? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 03:58:50 PM »