August 01, 2014, 06:20:39 AM

Author Topic: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos  (Read 6694 times)

JasonATL

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 03:24:49 PM »
That doesn't sound too bad. You just confused my decision a little bit more. haha. How do you feel the camera handles? picking your f/stop and shutter and ISO? Is it not as bad as some have made it sound? I really want to see a shot a bright sunny day with al the lights on indoor in any room, and in post, push the shadows way up and bring the highlights way down. I imagine I would expose more for the interior as its most important, but still under expose to be able to capture the exterior. If you were able to do that, that would really be awesome. do you think it's a camera that could be used on hand held glide cam? or is it too heavy? I will likely be renting one soon after hearing your thoughts. any suggestions on workflow for if/or when I rent it?

Cgdillan - check your PM box. I rendered out my video from a few days back. I didn't want to post the quick video publicly, as it was of my messy kitchen!

I don't have any issues with how the camera handles as far as functionality. My understanding of this camera is that, unlike DSLRs, it effectively has only ISO 800. That is, it gets its full dynamic range at ISO 800 and the other ISO's push/pull from there, losing a stop of DR for each ISO. The other ISO choices (400, 1600, and 3200) do not affect the raw file (their only stored as metadata). Therefore, choice of ISO only affects how the image is interpreted before being compressed in the compressed formats (ProRes and DNxHD). Therefore, I don't plan on ever changing the ISO for raw shooting and will be reluctant to do so when shooting DNxHD.

I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to change f-stops. I think I was surprised because, prior to the latest firmware, the original release of the camera did not report the f-stop. The current firmware does report the f-stop (for all of my lenses, at least) and never failed. You just push + or - to adjust. There is an iris button that opens the aperture to the widest point before clipping the highlights. This is useful, since this camera benefits from exposing as "bright" (i.e., open, wide, much to the right,...) as possible, then pulling down the exposure in post to what you want it to be. This gives the cleanest image. Shutter is in angle (not speed), so it is a bit cumbersome. I use it at 180, but it is easy to change by going into the menu (not with buttons). Note: ISO and shutter are in the menu, f-stop is by hard buttons.

I haven't put it on my glidecam yet. If you have one that has a harness/body support, then it probably isn't too heavy. If you're strong, it probably isn't too heavy. But, it is heavy. I bet it would be fine on a glider with a lightweight lens (e.g., the Tokina 11-16) for short shots.

Workflow: I'm working this out myself. The workflow with DNxHD or ProRes are no different than what you'd do with DSLR footage. With raw, your first stop is something that handles the .dng files. Photoshop, Lightroom, After Effects, Premier Pro, or Resolve (others?). I've used Resolve and Photoshop. Resolve Lite is free and it handles these files fine. Open in Resolve, adjust levels and color correct, then render it out to a compressed format to cut/edit just as you would any other camera's files. The nice thing is, you can choose different formats (even 10-bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4), allowing more color correction in your NLE, if you don't want to come back to Resolve. You can round trip back to Resolve if you like, giving you access to the raw files again. This is easy in Premiere Pro and Final Cut. Resolve is great and very powerful. I use Sony Vegas Pro, so I'm still working out some kinks (due to Vegas, I think). So, at best, there is one extra step in "developing" the raw files. You can add more steps for more fine adjustments or to suit your objectives. Having this flexibility is why I wanted and love this camera. And yes, you need SSD's and lots of storage. 5 MB per frame. A reasonably fast computer helps, too. Resolve Lite seemed faster on my machine than the full version of Resolve.

Just my thoughts after less than a week with the camera (and 6 months of anticipation).

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 03:24:49 PM »

DeltaEffects

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »
It sounds to me like you want an increase in DR for shooting real estate vids with a large difference between window highlights. Have you seen this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhVZWaOVOY
You could continue using the Mk3 for a while, or at the least wait until NAB 2013, where some great new products may arrive.

Also, if you don't want to tolerate a long, post-heavy workflow and dislike rigs, go with the C100.
If you want the absolute best image quality/resolution and have lots of time to set up shots, go with the BMCC.

JasonATL

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 09:13:06 PM »
Cgdillan - here's what you requested. I set the iris on the BMCC so that the outdoors were not clipping (i.e., I exposed for the out-the-window shot). I raised the shadows in Resolve. My skills and bringing up the shadows and making this look decent aren't great, but perhaps this will help you decide whether to rent the cam to see for yourself.
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Axilrod

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2013, 02:24:35 PM »
That doesn't sound too bad. You just confused my decision a little bit more. haha. How do you feel the camera handles? picking your f/stop and shutter and ISO? Is it not as bad as some have made it sound? I really want to see a shot a bright sunny day with al the lights on indoor in any room, and in post, push the shadows way up and bring the highlights way down. I imagine I would expose more for the interior as its most important, but still under expose to be able to capture the exterior. If you were able to do that, that would really be awesome. do you think it's a camera that could be used on hand held glide cam? or is it too heavy? I will likely be renting one soon after hearing your thoughts. any suggestions on workflow for if/or when I rent it?

It doesn't sound bad, and not to take anything away from his input, but it sounds like he pretty much just turned it on and pointed it around the house.  The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:28:47 PM by Axilrod »
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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 04:28:01 PM »
And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

It won't slow you down too much if you have the hardware to handle it. The hardware is not cheap, but neither is the c100.  But if you try to cheap out on the hardware, RAW will make your workflow miserable if not impossible. 

Why are you not not considering the 5D3? I feel like the only reason i would get a c100 is if i was going to do documentary stuff where i needed to handle tons of footage, run and gun,  and not have to worry too much about low light performance. 

JasonATL

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 06:53:12 PM »
The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

Fair points, all. I don't find raw as cumbersome as you seemed to. Perhaps my two-year-old machine is faster than the one you had available. The dynamic range of this camera still shows in the 10-bit 4:2:2 encoded files. Again, ProRes or DNxHD puts little extra burden on the workflow than the C100. Perhaps a bit more storage space, but with a benefit.

You point about the camera handling different than a proper video cam or a DSLR is also fair. It is clunky. A shoulder rig, slider, or tripod are a must. Whether Cgdillan uses these anyway is something he must consider.

Curious as to what issues the MFT version overcomes for you, given the issues you claim of the camera? None of those issues are changed in the MFT version. Is it just that the extra benefits of the MFT lenses (e.g., wider and/or faster) helps to further justify putting up with the costs you cite? I can understand that. Otherwise, you seemed very negative on the camera for certain reasons, only then to say that you might get one again in the future when none of those issues will be addressed.

In the end, I agree with you Axilrod. For a day-in, day-out workhorse (perhaps closer to run'n'gun), these issues might outweigh the image. A camera must be practical for its purpose. That's why my initial reaction to the OP was quite negative on the issue. Until I saw what I saw on my monitor. I'm just in love with the image this camera produces.

Cgdillan

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 08:39:47 PM »
The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

Fair points, all. I don't find raw as cumbersome as you seemed to. Perhaps my two-year-old machine is faster than the one you had available. The dynamic range of this camera still shows in the 10-bit 4:2:2 encoded files. Again, ProRes or DNxHD puts little extra burden on the workflow than the C100. Perhaps a bit more storage space, but with a benefit.

You point about the camera handling different than a proper video cam or a DSLR is also fair. It is clunky. A shoulder rig, slider, or tripod are a must. Whether Cgdillan uses these anyway is something he must consider.

Curious as to what issues the MFT version overcomes for you, given the issues you claim of the camera? None of those issues are changed in the MFT version. Is it just that the extra benefits of the MFT lenses (e.g., wider and/or faster) helps to further justify putting up with the costs you cite? I can understand that. Otherwise, you seemed very negative on the camera for certain reasons, only then to say that you might get one again in the future when none of those issues will be addressed.

In the end, I agree with you Axilrod. For a day-in, day-out workhorse (perhaps closer to run'n'gun), these issues might outweigh the image. A camera must be practical for its purpose. That's why my initial reaction to the OP was quite negative on the issue. Until I saw what I saw on my monitor. I'm just in love with the image this camera produces.

These are all great points to mention. I've been using my 5D3 for all my video work and for RE video i've been really feeling like I need more DR in my videos. I could care less about the 2.5K since the video will be probably viewed at 720p through vimeo. But the raw codec and extra DR I believe would greatly help my image, as well as my pride in my work. I was pretty turned off at first with all the "issues" the BMCC has, but I have totally fallen for the image it produces. I generally use Tripod, Glidecam, and Slider for stabilizations in my RE videos. I downloaded some test footage from the camera and FCP X actually took the .dng files in there native form wonderfully and the rendered extremely fast. I was very impressed. So I'm thinking towards the BMCC now over the C100 (I was thinking C100 over 5d3 for the extra dr and sharper image) as long as I can get in the house, shoot the proper exposure for each room, and get out. Usually takes about an hour to shoot a house up to 3,500 SF.
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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 08:39:47 PM »

Cgdillan

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 08:41:39 PM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.
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cookinghusband

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 04:42:15 AM »
A lots of friends have choose the C100 because of its more managable file format, especially if you are using a Mac. Seems like the the codec for for Mac is not optimised for 4K or any thing other than basic 1920x1080x25p.

Also file size and storage will be a great problem. Frequently buying 3T/4T HDD to store my footage, and copy them back to the SSD internal disk for editing. USB 3.0 is just marginally usable, with thunderbolt have interchangability probelm between mac and Win.

My spare pocket money just run down the drain after buying the 1DC because I need to keep buying memory cards and HDD and upgrade my worksation and software to deal with the large fiel from 4K video

cayenne

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 11:28:49 AM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Cgdillan

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2013, 03:59:16 PM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.
2x 5D mkiii, 7D, 60D, T2i, Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8, Bower 14mm f/2.8, Canon 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye, 24mm L f/1.4 ii, Sigma 35mm ART f/1.4, 24-105mm L f/4.0 IS, 50mm f/1.8 ii, 85mm L f/1.2 ii, 100mm L Macro f/2.8 IS, 135mm L f2.0 75-300mm f/4-5.6, 70-200mm L f/2.8, Sigma 70-200mm OS f/2.8. StockhamMedia.com

cayenne

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2013, 04:58:07 PM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c

Cgdillan

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 07:06:33 PM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c

The speed booster was announced, but is not available yet for MFT and Canon combo. Basically, if you have a FF canon camera and you adapt your lenses to the BMPCC, just multiply your lens "mm" by three. That how tight the lens will be. so a 100mm lens on a FF Canon camera is 100mm but on the pocket camera it would look like a 300mm. and with the speed booster is would look like a 200mm.

Now due to some very unexpected news, releases, and possibilities from magic lantern in the last week, my BMPCC is in danger of being cancelled. Magic Lantern has announced their ability of recording 24p continuos RAW video to CF cards on the 5D mkIII with likely no heat issues. If they get this stabilized, then I may be sticking to my 5D mkIII for my RE video work and canceling my black magic pre-order. We shall see what ML brings us. The way I see it, Magic Lantern has 2 months or so to polish up the raw video from 5d mkIII and win me back from Black Magic. I doubt there are any decent lenses sub $1K that would give me the quality I have with my 5d3 and bower 14mm. So to not have to invest further and just upgrade to better CF cards would be great!
2x 5D mkiii, 7D, 60D, T2i, Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8, Bower 14mm f/2.8, Canon 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye, 24mm L f/1.4 ii, Sigma 35mm ART f/1.4, 24-105mm L f/4.0 IS, 50mm f/1.8 ii, 85mm L f/1.2 ii, 100mm L Macro f/2.8 IS, 135mm L f2.0 75-300mm f/4-5.6, 70-200mm L f/2.8, Sigma 70-200mm OS f/2.8. StockhamMedia.com

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 07:06:33 PM »

kyswarts

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 09:36:19 PM »
These are all great points to mention. I've been using my 5D3 for all my video work and for RE video i've been really feeling like I need more DR in my videos. I could care less about the 2.5K since the video will be probably viewed at 720p through vimeo. But the raw codec and extra DR I believe would greatly help my image, as well as my pride in my work. I was pretty turned off at first with all the "issues" the BMCC has, but I have totally fallen for the image it produces. I generally use Tripod, Glidecam, and Slider for stabilizations in my RE videos. I downloaded some test footage from the camera and FCP X actually took the .dng files in there native form wonderfully and the rendered extremely fast. I was very impressed. So I'm thinking towards the BMCC now over the C100 (I was thinking C100 over 5d3 for the extra dr and sharper image) as long as I can get in the house, shoot the proper exposure for each room, and get out. Usually takes about an hour to shoot a house up to 3,500 SF.


You already have the camera you need!  Magic Lantern does HDR video on the 5D3 and they just announced RAW capabilities on 5D3 and possibly 5D2....  don't spend the extra money.  Check out this ML HDR tutorial:

Small | Large


If you need to see HDR footage from the 5D3 look here:

Small | Large



And finally check out this week's announcement concerning RAW capabilities with the 5D3:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/10324/big-news-hands-on-with-continuous-raw-recording-on-canon-5d-mark-iii

Also you can check out alex4d who has created a generator to make the workflow in FCPX really easy with ML HDR files:

http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/ml-u-hdr-compose-fcpx-plug-in/

cayenne

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 10:08:09 AM »
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c

The speed booster was announced, but is not available yet for MFT and Canon combo. Basically, if you have a FF canon camera and you adapt your lenses to the BMPCC, just multiply your lens "mm" by three. That how tight the lens will be. so a 100mm lens on a FF Canon camera is 100mm but on the pocket camera it would look like a 300mm. and with the speed booster is would look like a 200mm.

Now due to some very unexpected news, releases, and possibilities from magic lantern in the last week, my BMPCC is in danger of being cancelled. Magic Lantern has announced their ability of recording 24p continuos RAW video to CF cards on the 5D mkIII with likely no heat issues. If they get this stabilized, then I may be sticking to my 5D mkIII for my RE video work and canceling my black magic pre-order. We shall see what ML brings us. The way I see it, Magic Lantern has 2 months or so to polish up the raw video from 5d mkIII and win me back from Black Magic. I doubt there are any decent lenses sub $1K that would give me the quality I have with my 5d3 and bower 14mm. So to not have to invest further and just upgrade to better CF cards would be great!
I'm excited about this ML possibility too!

I have the Rokinon version of your Bower 14mm...very fun lens for a bargain price!!

I would like to try to break into the Real Estate video business, and I've been a big fan of your posts, VERY good stuff. I'm trying to learn by the C.A.S.E method (Copy And Steal Everything)...haha.

But seriously, I'm learning a lot from what you've posted, both posts and videos.

I believe we're in different parts of the US, I'm in the New Orleans area...so,we'd have no competion, so I was wondering if you had any advice on how to get started...what all equipment and processes you use...

I have a slider, an optonika (sp?) cheap-o steadi-cam....manfrotto monopod and tripod...and use FCPX for editing.

Do you use the 14mm a lot? What other lenses do you use? Are you using HDR (I think I recall a post or two showing you did, especially to help with keeping from blowing out highlights in a room from windows, etc).
Are you doing HDR video too?

Any advice or pointers welcome.

I have a couple of contacts in local realestate, but I wanna have my story together before approaching them. I might try to shoot a couple of friends' homes first to put an example video together.

What is the going rate for a real estate video shoot? Do you sign contracts keeping your rights to the video or do you sell those?

I'm also a bit of a techie...I was thinking of offering the videos to be hosted from my home business office servers...I have a business ISP account so I'm good to go on running servers, etc.

Anyway, any advice appreciated!!

Cayenne

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Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 10:08:09 AM »