December 19, 2014, 11:05:28 AM

Poll

POLL: MOST Objective of the REVIEWERS?

Dpreview
6 (6.1%)
Photozone
18 (18.2%)
DxOMark
2 (2%)
The-digital-picture
33 (33.3%)
Cnet
0 (0%)
Lenstip
1 (1%)
Ken Rockwell
6 (6.1%)
DigitalRev
7 (7.1%)
Other
5 (5.1%)
Lens Rentals
21 (21.2%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Voting closed: April 01, 2013, 04:38:10 AM

Author Topic: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?  (Read 10737 times)

AlanF

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2013, 07:00:55 AM »
The-Digital-picture

Canon EF 85mm f1.2 vs Sigma 85mm f1.4

When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.
As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens.
The big problem, as I already indicated, is that the lens does not focus accurately, consistently. Accurate focusing is especially important when shooting with the shallow DOF this lens is capable of. My experience with AI Servo focusing was even worse with a very low keeper rate for even moderately fast moving subjects.

I don't know why you quoted the above - to show bias?
I sometimes check quotes etc to see if they are taken out of context, and picked the 85mm at random. The whole review was very positive, apart from the focus issue (just read it). And, you missed out the next paragraph. Here are the paragraphs together.

 "I have been using the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens a lot over the last few months with a frame count in the thousands. I find this to be a very useful lens - and one I really like to use. When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.

As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens

Roger at LensRentals.com is having the same problem - at review time, he has a warning posted on his Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens rental page for this lens. "

So, Roger agrees, and the review would appear fair.
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2013, 07:00:55 AM »

candyman

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2013, 07:29:02 AM »
The-Digital-picture

EF 24-70 f2.8 II vs Tamron 24-70 f2.8 VC

The first is that the Canon has considerably better image quality than my second Tamron 24-70 VC - even at f/8 on the right side of the image (Tamron contacted me to replace the first copy of this lens as it had big image quality issues).


Canon 50mm f1.4 vs Sigma 50mm f1.4

the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens has proven very inconsistent for me in the focus accuracy department.
I have thrown out as many as 70% or more images from a single shoot of over 100 non-action, wide aperture shots because they were very OOF (Out of Focus).
Thus, unless you are primarily using manual focus or shooting at narrow apertures (f/4), I suggest buying the Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Lens instead.


Canon EF 85mm f1.2 vs Sigma 85mm f1.4

When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.
As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens.
The big problem, as I already indicated, is that the lens does not focus accurately, consistently. Accurate focusing is especially important when shooting with the shallow DOF this lens is capable of. My experience with AI Servo focusing was even worse with a very low keeper rate for even moderately fast moving subjects.
The Canon has a slight advantage in the extreme corner comparison. The Sigma has a slight advantage in the center of the frame at f/1.4, but the Canon has modestly better contrast overall. The Canon again has the modest advantage in the mid-lower right example.


Canon EF 35mm f1.4 vs Sigma 35mm f1.4

You are probably buying an ultra-wide aperture lens to use it's ultra-widest aperture setting. But, stop the Canon and Zeiss down to f/2.8 and most of the differences disappear. The Canon and Zeiss are similarly sharp at f/2.8 and both are even modestly sharper than the Sigma in the full frame peripheral area of the image circle (image corners).
Autofocusing is quick, though my perception is that the Canon EF 35mm f/1.4 L Lens focuses slightly faster when using both side-by-side.
A somewhat consistent and quite noticeable front focus problem on both of my 5D Mark III bodies required AFMA to correct.


I did not vote for TDP though I always read the reviews there. And I appreciate them very much. It is an important source. But I take the reviews not as the main/most important source since my perception is that TDP is subjective towards canon - as I think that is your point by quoting TDP.


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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2013, 08:09:59 AM »
Digital Picture and Photozone are very good. They provide a good balance, in-depth without getting too bogged down. It's also good to know that they're not actively selling products, although they do have the advert links and such, they're still independent.
Camera labs is worth a mention too, I like the flow, length and detail of the reviews on there.
I rarely read a full Dpreview review but they can be good if your after a specific piece of information as they cover pretty much everything.
I like the Digital rev reviews for a very general, quick look at a camera.

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2013, 08:12:41 AM »
The-Digital-picture

Canon EF 85mm f1.2 vs Sigma 85mm f1.4

When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.
As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens.
The big problem, as I already indicated, is that the lens does not focus accurately, consistently. Accurate focusing is especially important when shooting with the shallow DOF this lens is capable of. My experience with AI Servo focusing was even worse with a very low keeper rate for even moderately fast moving subjects.

I don't know why you quoted the above - to show bias?
I sometimes check quotes etc to see if they are taken out of context, and picked the 85mm at random. The whole review was very positive, apart from the focus issue (just read it). And, you missed out the next paragraph. Here are the paragraphs together.

 "I have been using the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens a lot over the last few months with a frame count in the thousands. I find this to be a very useful lens - and one I really like to use. When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.

As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens

Roger at LensRentals.com is having the same problem - at review time, he has a warning posted on his Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens rental page for this lens. "

So, Roger agrees, and the review would appear fair.


Yes, you're wright about quoting some parts of the reviews, but analyzing the non Canon lenses reviews done at The-Digital-picture we see more disadvantages and critics, in the other hand all Canon lenses seem not to get mentioned the downsides that much. Sometimes even NON Canon L Lenses seem to be preferred and better than a Sigma, Tamron (or other) PRO Grade lens.

All i want to say (while i am Canon user, and prefer Canon L lenses), is that there is a significant preference to Canon lenses even if some of them have inferior quality and overall performance.

Please don't get me wrong but when i first discovered The-Digital-Picture, i really thought ''this guy is defiantly sponsored by Canon'' , ''weird, he's always the first to get a new lens sample to test it, while others like Photozone wait long time to have and test it''...

While i think that these reviews are not as Objective as they should be, i do think that the Lens Comparison Tools is the best you can find out there.

5D MK III / EF 16-35mm f2.8 L USM II / EF 24-70 f2.8 L II /EF 70-200mm f2.8 L / Extender 1.4 / EF 35mm f2 IS / EF 50mm f1.4 USM / Sigma 85mm f1.4
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LifeAfter

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2013, 08:17:51 AM »
Glad to see The-Digital-Picture and Lens Rentals leading the poll ... always liked reading their reviews.


We do like reading good reviews for our lenses, it makes you feel that you have the best lens, but i think we really need OBJECTIVE reviews to know what to expect from a lens before buying.
5D MK III / EF 16-35mm f2.8 L USM II / EF 24-70 f2.8 L II /EF 70-200mm f2.8 L / Extender 1.4 / EF 35mm f2 IS / EF 50mm f1.4 USM / Sigma 85mm f1.4
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2013, 08:24:57 AM »
The-Digital-picture

EF 24-70 f2.8 II vs Tamron 24-70 f2.8 VC

The first is that the Canon has considerably better image quality than my second Tamron 24-70 VC - even at f/8 on the right side of the image (Tamron contacted me to replace the first copy of this lens as it had big image quality issues).


Canon 50mm f1.4 vs Sigma 50mm f1.4

the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens has proven very inconsistent for me in the focus accuracy department.
I have thrown out as many as 70% or more images from a single shoot of over 100 non-action, wide aperture shots because they were very OOF (Out of Focus).
Thus, unless you are primarily using manual focus or shooting at narrow apertures (f/4), I suggest buying the Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Lens instead.


Canon EF 85mm f1.2 vs Sigma 85mm f1.4

When I get an accurately-focused image, I really like the image quality from the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens - it is really nice. But accurate focusing is this lens' definite weakness - getting accurate focus has been an issue.
As of Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM Lens review time, I have purchased (retail) three and returned two of these lenses. The first lens was consistently front focusing. The second lens was focusing so inconsistently that I wished for the first one back. The third lens is focusing very inconsistently, but does seem to average to the correct focus distance. I cut my losses and kept this copy of the lens.
The big problem, as I already indicated, is that the lens does not focus accurately, consistently. Accurate focusing is especially important when shooting with the shallow DOF this lens is capable of. My experience with AI Servo focusing was even worse with a very low keeper rate for even moderately fast moving subjects.
The Canon has a slight advantage in the extreme corner comparison. The Sigma has a slight advantage in the center of the frame at f/1.4, but the Canon has modestly better contrast overall. The Canon again has the modest advantage in the mid-lower right example.


Canon EF 35mm f1.4 vs Sigma 35mm f1.4

You are probably buying an ultra-wide aperture lens to use it's ultra-widest aperture setting. But, stop the Canon and Zeiss down to f/2.8 and most of the differences disappear. The Canon and Zeiss are similarly sharp at f/2.8 and both are even modestly sharper than the Sigma in the full frame peripheral area of the image circle (image corners).
Autofocusing is quick, though my perception is that the Canon EF 35mm f/1.4 L Lens focuses slightly faster when using both side-by-side.
A somewhat consistent and quite noticeable front focus problem on both of my 5D Mark III bodies required AFMA to correct.


I did not vote for TDP though I always read the reviews there. And I appreciate them very much. It is an important source. But I take the reviews not as the main/most important source since my perception is that TDP is subjective towards canon - as I think that is your point by quoting TDP.

+1

That's right, while i don't think Photozone is perfect neither,i do think is more objective concerning the reviews.
they do have their ''bar put too high'', they are a little bit too critical... not easy to get their Highly Recommended  grade. 

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LifeAfter

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2013, 08:32:26 AM »
And Dpreview was my default website, always open in my desktop, it was mostly for Bodies not for lenses. Anyway  i think it is a good reference for technical information of a product, but not anymore Objective since it was bought by Amazon.
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2013, 08:32:26 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2013, 08:37:26 AM »
...we really need OBJECTIVE reviews to know what to expect from a lens before buying.

Do we?  I suspect most such decisions are based on features and price.  Plus, everyone has bias.  The best you can probably do is read several reviews and synthesize a conclusion.
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elflord

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2013, 08:40:24 AM »
So that pushed me to make this Poll, to see the users opinion and maybe the credibility of the reviewers.

Seems to me that many don't understand what "objective" means. "Objective" is not the same thing as "credible" or "useful". The luminous landscape reviews for example are largely subjective -- they generally do not contain any measurements or test chart shots, they are largely descriptions of the author's experience with and impressions of the lens.

Lens Rentals is a very useful site, and contains a large amount of both objective tests as well as purely subjective "Roger's take" comments. 

TDP have the test charts, but I don't see how that website has any business leading this poll. Objective doesn't mean "subjective and agrees with me". Ironically, the two highest scoring sites in the poll are two of the more subjective reviewers (e.g. lenstip and photozone are more objective than LR or TDP)

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2013, 08:49:52 AM »
As we all see, we really need to read all the reviews of important websites like these to have a more objective and definitive information about a product - mostly lenses, before buying it.

And of course taking the most objective and reliable part of all of them:

Dpreview:                   to get technical information of a product (mostly bodies).
The-Digital-Picture:     the comparison tool.
Digitalrev:                   to laugh a bit.
Lensrentals:               Their primarily purpose is commercial, they do more a kind of presentation than a real review.
                                   anyway they are more objective then the above three.
Photozone:                 They really have they ''bar put too high'', i do think they are the most objective out there.
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2013, 08:50:39 AM »
...we really need OBJECTIVE reviews to know what to expect from a lens before buying.

Do we?  I suspect most such decisions are based on features and price.  Plus, everyone has bias.  The best you can probably do is read several reviews and synthesize a conclusion.

+1
5D MK III / EF 16-35mm f2.8 L USM II / EF 24-70 f2.8 L II /EF 70-200mm f2.8 L / Extender 1.4 / EF 35mm f2 IS / EF 50mm f1.4 USM / Sigma 85mm f1.4
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2013, 08:52:34 AM »
So that pushed me to make this Poll, to see the users opinion and maybe the credibility of the reviewers.

Seems to me that many don't understand what "objective" means. "Objective" is not the same thing as "credible" or "useful". The luminous landscape reviews for example are largely subjective -- they generally do not contain any measurements or test chart shots, they are largely descriptions of the author's experience with and impressions of the lens.

Lens Rentals is a very useful site, and contains a large amount of both objective tests as well as purely subjective "Roger's take" comments. 

TDP have the test charts, but I don't see how that website has any business leading this poll. Objective doesn't mean "subjective and agrees with me". Ironically, the two highest scoring sites in the poll are two of the more subjective reviewers (e.g. lenstip and photozone are more objective than LR or TDP)

100% agree with all the above
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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2013, 09:56:22 AM »
The problem with many sites is - they test lens sharpness only, and nothing else. Many years and many lenses later, I learned to ignore sharpness tests - once you get a modern high quality lens (on FF), sharpness is good enough and the other qualities of the lens like bokeh, AF accuracy, local contrast (higher MTF values)  flare, etc., are far more important.

PZ, for example would criticize fast wide primes at f/1.4 for corner performance, comparing them, implicitly, to slower or longer  primes. Really, Klauss? Their bokeh test is as joke. DXO is fixated on "acutance" only and they do not even document what that means. They recently reviewed the 135L and roughly speaking, concluded that it was good enough for an old lens, once you get a good deal on it but the Sigma 85 is better. This is a bad joke by people who do not shoot outside their labs. The TDP guy is much more down to earth. Dpreview, IMO, publishes infomercials only, nothing trustworthy there.

Sometimes I think that KR's "reviews" are more useful than PZ, etc.   ;)

As we all see, we really need to read all the reviews of important websites like these to have a more objective and definitive information about a product - mostly lenses, before buying it.

And of course taking the most objective and reliable part of all of them:

Dpreview:                   to get technical information of a product (mostly bodies).
The-Digital-Picture:     the comparison tool.
Digitalrev:                   to laugh a bit.
Lensrentals:               Their primarily purpose is commercial, they do more a kind of presentation than a real review.
                                   anyway they are more objective then the above three.
Photozone:                 They really have they ''bar put too high'', i do think they are the most objective out there.

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2013, 09:56:22 AM »

elflord

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2013, 09:37:53 PM »
PZ, for example would criticize fast wide primes at f/1.4 for corner performance, comparing them, implicitly, to slower or longer  primes. Really, Klauss?
I don't think that's an accurate criticism. When he reviews test results (like soft corners or conspicuous barrel distortion or absence of distortions), he makes a point of mentioning whether those results are expected (or better or worse than expected) for that type of lens.

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2013, 02:59:20 PM »
...we really need OBJECTIVE reviews to know what to expect from a lens before buying.

Do we?  I suspect most such decisions are based on features and price.  Plus, everyone has bias.  The best you can probably do is read several reviews and synthesize a conclusion.

Well said. Bias is inherent to human brain function. Only way without bias is letting machine do it. That's why good technical data from well designed setup is valuable (TDP, Photozone, DxO, LensRentals; more the better). You can look at it and make up your mind with your own bias. If you want no technical data and self contradictory but peppy talk, well you have 6 Rockwell fans here.....

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Re: Most Objective and Less Objective REVIEWER?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2013, 02:59:20 PM »