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Author Topic: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)  (Read 29434 times)

dstppy

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 11:49:17 AM »
Speaking from one that's gone your route (graduated Brooks Institute, your schools competition in, 2004), I have a few bits of advice and clarification.  When I started in the early 2001, they required a 35mm film camera.  By the time I graduated, they didn't have that requirement anymore because they were in the process of going strictly digital, which was a decision I opposed at the time.  While I was there, the first half of my time was dedicated to film and fundamentals... 35mm, 4x5's, medium format, studio, advanced studio, lighting, portraiture, strobes, etc... My school had a large rental dept that was free to students for 3 day rentals on most equipment, however the popular stuff got taken quickly so if you really liked a certain piece, they suggested you get a student loan and buy the gear to insure you always had them for your disposal. 

That sounds a lot more reasonable.  Thanks for the info.
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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 11:49:17 AM »

bycostello

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 03:33:23 AM »
if they say it isn't they are talking rubbish...  as long as you know how the depth of field is affected then it really dosn't matter....  as a general rule of thumb, just shoot a stop wider to get the same as a full frame

Canihaspicture

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 04:42:23 AM »
as a general rule of thumb, just shoot a stop wider to get the same as a full frame

Haha, tell that to the beautiful bokeh from my F/1.2 lenses on full frame. With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 08:01:49 AM »
With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(
So take a couple of steps back...

neuroanatomist

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 09:14:24 AM »
With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(
So take a couple of steps back...

That's exactly why a crop body delivers deeper DoF - becaiase you need to take a couple of steps back to match the framing of that lens on a FF camera, and that increased distance means deeper DoF.  Short of going out and building yourself a lens with f/0.75 for your APS-C camera, you'll never be able to achieve the shallow DoF of f/1.2 on FF.  Personally, I often get comments on portraits about the simplicity of the backgrounds - in fact, there is often a lot going on back there, it's just effectively blurred out by the wide aperture of the 85L.

Having said that, I do agree that a 7D should be as useable for photo classes as a 5DII, and you can certainly achieve thin DoF with an APS-C sensor, if not quite as thin as with FF, much less MF.
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awinphoto

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2011, 10:11:27 AM »
This whole debate is moot if the OP comes back and says the school wants her to shoot 35mm film for the first year or so...  Please get clarification on that... then once you got that figured out, see if your school have a free rental dept and can rent both digitals as your classes get to digital.  Heck by that time the 5d mark III may be out and you can purchase that, case closed. 
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dstppy

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2011, 10:24:32 AM »
This whole debate is moot if the OP comes back and says the school wants her to shoot 35mm film for the first year or so...  Please get clarification on that... then once you got that figured out, see if your school have a free rental dept and can rent both digitals as your classes get to digital.  Heck by that time the 5d mark III may be out and you can purchase that, case closed.
If it's a 4-year school . . . the EF 8-15mm f/4L Fisheye USM could actually be in the wild before she finishes.

Maybe . . .  ;D
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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2011, 10:24:32 AM »

bycostello

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2011, 10:28:46 AM »
With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(
So take a couple of steps back...

beat me to it..!!   ;D

bycostello

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2011, 10:31:14 AM »
With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(
So take a couple of steps back...

That's exactly why a crop body delivers deeper DoF - becaiase you need to take a couple of steps back to match the framing of that lens on a FF camera, and that increased distance means deeper DoF.  Short of going out and building yourself a lens with f/0.75 for your APS-C camera, you'll never be able to achieve the shallow DoF of f/1.2 on FF.  Personally, I often get comments on portraits about the simplicity of the backgrounds - in fact, there is often a lot going on back there, it's just effectively blurred out by the wide aperture of the 85L.

Having said that, I do agree that a 7D should be as useable for photo classes as a 5DII, and you can certainly achieve thin DoF with an APS-C sensor, if not quite as thin as with FF, much less MF.

but who really shoots at f1.2.. ok perhaps sometimes...  but realisticlly no...  most of my lenses are f2.8 so the sweet spot for the lens is around f4, which is where i normally shoot.... 

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2011, 11:09:08 AM »
The school I will be attending in a year or two offers rental equipment but requires that you buy your own camera. The rental equipment is for flashes, various lenses, and more expensive cameras that students couldn't possibly afford. The school I would be attending in the mean time does not provide or rent equipment because they're very small. Their main focus is work shops and fine art. They still have yet to get back to me, and I'm thinking that I should just drive over in person today to ask. Sometimes it's hard to get concrete answers by email.

As I said, I'm going with the 7D for now. I think the 5D Mk ii is better however it stretches my purse strings too much for it to be comfortable. I'm going to spend a few months to a year building up a glass collection, then purchase the 5d. I don't want the first DSLR I purchase to be used just in case, but the second I won't mind so much. With canon hinting that something big and exciting might be coming out next year anyway, I think it's wiser to not break the bank now and just hope the school means film (considering they have the only public dark room in the area, I'm going to assume this is the case).

On the subject of glass collection, I do need some advice. I'm looking for something that's fast, good for portraits, but has telephoto zoom (such as the 70-200mm f/2.8 [or 4] USM or 75-300mm) and is good for moving horse photography if I find I need to do it. IS is irrelevant to me. Are the ones I mentioned good options, or is there a better one I can get in the <$1600 price range?

awinphoto

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2011, 11:10:42 AM »
With a crop camera you cut off the beauty on every side of the frame.  :'(
So take a couple of steps back...

That's exactly why a crop body delivers deeper DoF - becaiase you need to take a couple of steps back to match the framing of that lens on a FF camera, and that increased distance means deeper DoF.  Short of going out and building yourself a lens with f/0.75 for your APS-C camera, you'll never be able to achieve the shallow DoF of f/1.2 on FF.  Personally, I often get comments on portraits about the simplicity of the backgrounds - in fact, there is often a lot going on back there, it's just effectively blurred out by the wide aperture of the 85L.

Having said that, I do agree that a 7D should be as useable for photo classes as a 5DII, and you can certainly achieve thin DoF with an APS-C sensor, if not quite as thin as with FF, much less MF.

but who really shoots at f1.2.. ok perhaps sometimes...  but realisticlly no...  most of my lenses are f2.8 so the sweet spot for the lens is around f4, which is where i normally shoot....

Exactly... Even if you can shoot 1.2 on portraiture, the eyelash will be in focus but the eyeball wont or visa versa... Kinda freaks out clients when they see that cause they think in their minds it's out of focus... We as photographers can appreciate it but clients, unless they are fine art type of people wont buy them... on my 50 1.4 I shoot around 2.2 give or take... thats it's sweet spot for me on portraits... enough is in focus for the client to appreciate and a nice soft background. 
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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2011, 11:13:12 AM »
The school I will be attending in a year or two offers rental equipment but requires that you buy your own camera. The rental equipment is for flashes, various lenses, and more expensive cameras that students couldn't possibly afford. The school I would be attending in the mean time does not provide or rent equipment because they're very small. Their main focus is work shops and fine art. They still have yet to get back to me, and I'm thinking that I should just drive over in person today to ask. Sometimes it's hard to get concrete answers by email.

As I said, I'm going with the 7D for now. I think the 5D Mk ii is better however it stretches my purse strings too much for it to be comfortable. I'm going to spend a few months to a year building up a glass collection, then purchase the 5d. I don't want the first DSLR I purchase to be used just in case, but the second I won't mind so much. With canon hinting that something big and exciting might be coming out next year anyway, I think it's wiser to not break the bank now and just hope the school means film (considering they have the only public dark room in the area, I'm going to assume this is the case).

On the subject of glass collection, I do need some advice. I'm looking for something that's fast, good for portraits, but has telephoto zoom (such as the 70-200mm f/2.8 [or 4] USM or 75-300mm) and is good for moving horse photography if I find I need to do it. IS is irrelevant to me. Are the ones I mentioned good options, or is there a better one I can get in the <$1600 price range?

Is $1600 your total budget for all lenses? 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

awinphoto

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 11:22:27 AM »
The school I will be attending in a year or two offers rental equipment but requires that you buy your own camera. The rental equipment is for flashes, various lenses, and more expensive cameras that students couldn't possibly afford. The school I would be attending in the mean time does not provide or rent equipment because they're very small. Their main focus is work shops and fine art. They still have yet to get back to me, and I'm thinking that I should just drive over in person today to ask. Sometimes it's hard to get concrete answers by email.

As I said, I'm going with the 7D for now. I think the 5D Mk ii is better however it stretches my purse strings too much for it to be comfortable. I'm going to spend a few months to a year building up a glass collection, then purchase the 5d. I don't want the first DSLR I purchase to be used just in case, but the second I won't mind so much. With canon hinting that something big and exciting might be coming out next year anyway, I think it's wiser to not break the bank now and just hope the school means film (considering they have the only public dark room in the area, I'm going to assume this is the case).

On the subject of glass collection, I do need some advice. I'm looking for something that's fast, good for portraits, but has telephoto zoom (such as the 70-200mm f/2.8 [or 4] USM or 75-300mm) and is good for moving horse photography if I find I need to do it. IS is irrelevant to me. Are the ones I mentioned good options, or is there a better one I can get in the <$1600 price range?

Trying to keep under $1600... I kinda want to go with the 17-55 and 70-200 F4 L..  The 17-55 wont be able to move over to the 5d when you move over to full frame but will suit the 7D just fine.  If you want to have lenses that will move over with you when you make the jump, you can get the 17-40 L and and a used 70-200 F4 IS or 70-200 F2.8 Non-IS.  I would stay away with the 70-300 unless you are getting the L version... kinda soft and will cause hair to fall out.  You can also try a sigma 70-200 2.8 which is around $900... They are good if you find a good copy (test a few at the camera store).  This could get you started until you get some more money for fast primes...

Lastly you can pick up a 24-105 or 24-70... that would chew up most your money but you could pick up a fast prime like a 50 1.4 or 85 1.8 or maybe 100 2.0  not much telephoto effect but will get your feet wet. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:29:30 AM by awinphoto »
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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 11:22:27 AM »

kencathy

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2011, 11:36:12 AM »
All very good comments here. I would second the opinion that virtually any SLR or dSLR should be just fine for a photography course. I could guess a wide range zoom plus a bigger aperture normal (50mm or so with either full frame or APS-C) lens should be ample.

Being rather technical and mathematical in background, the real challenge to me in photography is composition (I am probably stating the obvious). I once saw among many booths at a photography exhibition a group of absolutely stunningly composed monochrome (sepia) pictures. A little blur, especially at the edges, seemed to be judiciously applied to good effect. Beautiful work.

I saw a moment later that these were taken with a pinhole camera.

Finally, I would throw in this piece of advice. A few years ago, I brought myself up to date equipment-wise by getting a Canon 30d with a nice zoom (24-104mm f/4 L) -- this was coming from an A1 (film SLR from ~1980). Wow, fully automatic! All kinds of automatically selected focus points, exposure calculated with even more measurements, white balance calculated for you, on and on.

I am embarrassed to tell you how long it took me to figure out I could do a much better job by setting the camera manually. Maybe not full manual all the time, but at least using aperture priority if not full manual exposure, manual focusing under some conditions, choosing RAW in contrasty situations, using flash fill-in controlled manually, and so forth. Maybe restating it, just knowing what the camera is doing, and taking control if it is not right.

So, maybe the moral here is: compose carefully, and don't let a fully automatic camera lull you into indifference to its operation.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:38:29 AM by kencathy »

dtaylor

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2011, 11:44:34 AM »
The difference is noticeable rain. I live in Seattle and there are a lot of dark/overcast days. I also like to shoot at dusk. I'm not sure about how much of a difference it is on a DSLR than a compact, but on my Panasonic I'm at max ISO (1600) all the time when I do my evening shoots. You bring up some excellent points though, and the 7D may be the way to go for now despite the noise. Do you think the overcast days and dusk shoots will take a hit from choosing the 7D?

If you actually have to shoot at 1600 and make larger prints (i.e. 13x19 or 16x24), the 5D mkII will show a noticeable, but not huge, advantage in that it will yield less noise and more fine detail. It's not that the 7D will be bad, in fact it's quite good at higher ISOs. It's just that the 5D mkII is better there, particularly when it comes to retaining fine detail for a larger print.

That said unless you have to shoot handheld, a tripod is the best tool you can have for dusk shots, and that's true for either camera. I shoot at dusk all the time and almost always at ISO 100-400 from a tripod. At those ISOs it's a wash between these two sensors. You also have fast glass and IS options with a DSLR that you probably don't have on your compact, so you might find yourself shooting lower ISOs handheld.

Keep in mind the price difference. Even if you must shoot hand held at dusk, a 7D + 30 f/1.4, purchased with part of the savings, will easily beat a 5D mkII + f/4 zoom (for example) in low light.

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Re: I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2011, 11:44:34 AM »