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Author Topic: the rebate program... what a sham!  (Read 17559 times)

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2013, 04:42:32 PM »
Not to disagree as I have no reason to do so.  But, like my warning above, you have to be careful with numbers.  As in the matter of what place one holds or what percentage of sales of this and that.....we don't know the quantities we're talking about.  And unless you do those metrics Amazon reports don't really help us much.  From the data provided we could be talking about 28 cameras or 28,000 cameras.  In the 28,000 case maybe you are having a bottle of DP with your significant other tonight but in the other case you may be putting a gun to your head.

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2013, 04:42:32 PM »

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2013, 06:03:54 PM »


Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!
[/quote]

Amazon's top seller list is ranked over a long period of time. It's has nothing to do with today's sales or, this weeks numbers.

Big Value is shown on Ebay. Big Value can't fudge those numbers. Those numbers are generated by Ebay.
I totally understand the "big house" numbers would be intriguing, but for a low cost seller it's interesting that they haven't sold one in over a week. Maybe being an non-authorized vendor has something to do with it?
However... they have sold 370 in the past.

BTW... Get it Digital is at a quantity of 20. Just for the record... ;) They happen to sell on Ebay too.
I'm just going to sit back and watch both of those vendors. Let's see what happens if these two vendors drop their prices from where they are now.
Canon 5D Mark III, Canon 7D, Canon 100mm 2.8 IS L Macro, Canon 70-200mm 2.8 II IS L, Canon 300mm 4.0 IS L, Canon 10-22mm IS, Canon 24-105mm 4.0 IS L, Canon 1.4 Extender III, Canon 24mm II 3.5 Tilt Shift L, Canon 17-40mm 4.0 IS L, ( 2 ) Canon EX-600

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »
Buy what you want - and go back to lurking.  No one on this forum controls the prices charged by stores.  If you have a question we will be glad to answer it - I have learned a lot from others on this forum.  But forget the cheap shots, the are simply cheap

Thank you for that personal attack, RGF!
First of all... what cheap shot?
Who said people on this forum controls the prices charged by the stores?
If you would take the time to read the posts, this was about how Canon themselves have set prices/raised prices, and created a rebate program which was questionable.
These are all facts!
If you want to enter an opinion based upon what this thread was about, please do.
Ciao...
Canon 5D Mark III, Canon 7D, Canon 100mm 2.8 IS L Macro, Canon 70-200mm 2.8 II IS L, Canon 300mm 4.0 IS L, Canon 10-22mm IS, Canon 24-105mm 4.0 IS L, Canon 1.4 Extender III, Canon 24mm II 3.5 Tilt Shift L, Canon 17-40mm 4.0 IS L, ( 2 ) Canon EX-600

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2013, 11:21:37 PM »
We are simply talking the marketing of photography here, as professionals, and I think that's a valid thing to do on this forum and central to the affordability of our hobby.  We are not trying to attack the products or anyone here and, as far as sales and the selling of Canon are concerned, we are talking about facts to the extent that we can discern them.  We LIKE the equipment, we BUY the equipment but it's not a religion to us. It's just a conversation.  So use rudeness if that's the way you are but your intimidation of others only cheapens this board and won't get the results you want. 

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2013, 02:06:31 PM »


Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!

Amazon's top seller list is ranked over a long period of time. It's has nothing to do with today's sales or, this weeks numbers.

Big Value is shown on Ebay. Big Value can't fudge those numbers. Those numbers are generated by Ebay.
I totally understand the "big house" numbers would be intriguing, but for a low cost seller it's interesting that they haven't sold one in over a week. Maybe being an non-authorized vendor has something to do with it?
However... they have sold 370 in the past.

BTW... Get it Digital is at a quantity of 20. Just for the record... ;) They happen to sell on Ebay too.
I'm just going to sit back and watch both of those vendors. Let's see what happens if these two vendors drop their prices from where they are now.
[/quote]

I use amazon as a source to see how things are going because it's big and its universal...  I have never heard of big value and rarely shop via ebay, I just don't trust it..I especially don't trust it when it comes to items that cost more than a grand.  That's not to say I won't buy used product, but --- when I do it's through B&H or adorama, ordering from them I trust what I'll get, on ebay, not so trusting. 


Eitherway, the fact that on amazon, one of the biggest retailers in the world, the 5d3 is and 6d is holding it's own in the top 20 states volumes to me.  Look at the cost other bodies in the top 20, from 1-20

1)  $492.00
2)  $799
3)  $639
4)  $374
5) $1196
6)  $446
7)  $579
8)  $596
9)  $546
10)  $2398 (6d with kit lens)
11)  $996
12)  $799
13)  $900
14)  $3298 (5d3 body only)
15)  $1248
16)  $799
17)  $796
18)  $546
19)  $1899 (6d body only)
20)  $518

See a theme here?  Lot's of sub-$1000 bodies, which is as a list like this should be.  The anomalies here are that any 2K priced body makes it on the top 20 when its competing against sub-1K bodies.  I would have expected the 5d3 to be ranked in the 20-40 range, not holding in there at 14th when everything around it in sales is 2 grand less!!!!!

Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2013, 02:36:49 PM »
Buy what you want - and go back to lurking.  No one on this forum controls the prices charged by stores.  If you have a question we will be glad to answer it - I have learned a lot from others on this forum.  But forget the cheap shots, the are simply cheap

Thank you for that personal attack, RGF!
First of all... what cheap shot?
Who said people on this forum controls the prices charged by the stores?
If you would take the time to read the posts, this was about how Canon themselves have set prices/raised prices, and created a rebate program which was questionable.
These are all facts!
If you want to enter an opinion based upon what this thread was about, please do.
Ciao...

I think 2 things here, first, take a chill pill, go use your camera and enjoy it!..Second...Canon and the rebates  vs how individual retailers price and sell the product ---it takes 2 to tango here.  While I dislike Canon's enforcement of MAP pricing, I get why it's there and there is nothing I can do about it so it's best to just deal with it.  But, when you see things like what just happened over the last month with the 6d (same deal, but now about a hundred more with rebate) --- that's the retailer doing that!!!!

Specific retailer - B&H.  For about a month you could snag the 6d, with a bad and a memory card for $1799 (of course you had to put it in the cart to see the price because canon wants them to charge $2100).  Now, good till may 11th, same deal (6d, bag, 16gig sd card) for $1899 with rebate!.  Is it $100 more than last month?  yes.  But --- it's still $200 less than the MAP price.  Is that canons doing?  No!!!!!  That's b&h's doing!@!!!  B&H knows what the MAP price is, and they know what their wholesaler cost is - they know how to price it to make a profit and even if it costs more, rebate draws attention --they can advertise that because it's canon official (note - they can advertise the rebate, but they can't blast ad's saying it's $1899 --- they say $100 rebate, add to cart to see final price...

Back to reality now...why fret over this so much?  Wouldn't it be so much more productive to go shoot and enjoy the images you get from your camera than to be angry over the price?  I bought my 5d3 last july, full price of $3500.  I don't regret a moment of that decision.  The weddings I have shot with it are just magical, the versatility to shoot without flash in almost any situation just blows my mind. 

We are simply talking the marketing of photography here, as professionals, and I think that's a valid thing to do on this forum and central to the affordability of our hobby.  We are not trying to attack the products or anyone here and, as far as sales and the selling of Canon are concerned, we are talking about facts to the extent that we can discern them.  We LIKE the equipment, we BUY the equipment but it's not a religion to us. It's just a conversation.  So use rudeness if that's the way you are but your intimidation of others only cheapens this board and won't get the results you want. 

I don't get it...are you talking as a professional?  Or is this a hobby?  Not a stab but, if your a pro you don't fret so much over the cost, you fret over what the capabilities are and what level of improvement you'll see in what you buy.  That's why studio/landscape folks dislike the 5d3 and don't feel it's worth it ---they want better IQ and DR at base ISO.  For them the value is just not there.  For a wedding/event shooter, the ability to shoot without worry between ISO 6400-12,800 is huge....less flash, more ambient light = more pleasing shots that capture the feel of the moment.  This is why I ask ---are you commenting as a pro or a hobbyist?     
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2013, 02:50:36 PM »

I use amazon as a source to see how things are going because it's big and its universal...  I have never heard of big value and rarely shop via ebay, I just don't trust it..I especially don't trust it when it comes to items that cost more than a grand.  That's not to say I won't buy used product, but --- when I do it's through B&H or adorama, ordering from them I trust what I'll get, on ebay, not so trusting. 

I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2013, 02:50:36 PM »

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2013, 04:34:45 PM »
Quote
I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.

That is a good point, Mt. Spokane!
However... the link to Big Value that you provide on this site is for one listing. That quantity number hasn't changed in over 8 days now. Big Value has a second listing which includes a memory card. On that listing they have 73 sold at the moment.
It's important to have baseline numbers. That's why I've listed numbers as a fact with a time frame. Listing numbers by themselves do you no good. You need to monitor the numbers on each day to give yourself a track record.
Thanks for bringing that up!

Let me reply to Chuck if I may...
I'm a professional photographer too. My background also deals with advertising and marketing. As a professional photographer yourself, you realize more than others that 20% of your time is spent behind the camera, and the other 80% is about post/business related things.
As part of my 80% I need to watch my costs. Equipment costs are things I can control to a certain degree. That degree is when you purchase at the right time, and if your getting value with your purchase.
What stood out like a sore thumb to me is how a camera such as the 5D Mark III being on the market for over a year now went up in price? The rebate was added to somehow disguise that price move. It truly perplexed me as a advertising and marketing person/background that Canon would do that?
Let me explain...
Rumor has it that Canon has a larger MP camera ready to launch sometime in the near future. Why would you raise the price of the 5D Mark III being over a year old, and lower the price of the 6D which is the newest full frame camera Canon has come out with?
Is the reason to place the 5D Mark III between the 6D, and the upcoming large MP camera?
Interesting thought, isn't it???
My other point was that there's a huge price gap between the 5D Mark III and the 6D which will allow Nikon to take advantage with the D800. The D800 price fits right between the 5D Mark III and the 6D, and the D800 is  $500 less than the 5D Mark III.
Chuck, I appreciate the time you took to gather up the amazon numbers. I think you need to have a base time frame/ranking to see how they will change in the next week, month etc... Thank for doing that!
In the end, an open discussion with facts should always be welcomed. My posts weren't intended to stir the pot. It was only intended to point out changes in regards to the flip flop marketing and advertising Canon was doing.
So... Is Canon positioning themselves with prices before the big MP comes out or, did Canon allow Nikon to get more market share? I guess with some baseline numbers with a few things I guess we'll wait and see.
Ciao...
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM »
Quote
I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.

That is a good point, Mt. Spokane!
However... the link to Big Value that you provide on this site is for one listing. That quantity number hasn't changed in over 8 days now. Big Value has a second listing which includes a memory card. On that listing they have 73 sold at the moment.
It's important to have baseline numbers. That's why I've listed numbers as a fact with a time frame. Listing numbers by themselves do you no good. You need to monitor the numbers on each day to give yourself a track record.
Thanks for bringing that up!

Let me reply to Chuck if I may...
I'm a professional photographer too. My background also deals with advertising and marketing. As a professional photographer yourself, you realize more than others that 20% of your time is spent behind the camera, and the other 80% is about post/business related things.
As part of my 80% I need to watch my costs. Equipment costs are things I can control to a certain degree. That degree is when you purchase at the right time, and if your getting value with your purchase.
What stood out like a sore thumb to me is how a camera such as the 5D Mark III being on the market for over a year now went up in price? The rebate was added to somehow disguise that price move. It truly perplexed me as a advertising and marketing person/background that Canon would do that?
Let me explain...
Rumor has it that Canon has a larger MP camera ready to launch sometime in the near future. Why would you raise the price of the 5D Mark III being over a year old, and lower the price of the 6D which is the newest full frame camera Canon has come out with?
Is the reason to place the 5D Mark III between the 6D, and the upcoming large MP camera?
Interesting thought, isn't it???
My other point was that there's a huge price gap between the 5D Mark III and the 6D which will allow Nikon to take advantage with the D800. The D800 price fits right between the 5D Mark III and the 6D, and the D800 is  $500 less than the 5D Mark III.
Chuck, I appreciate the time you took to gather up the amazon numbers. I think you need to have a base time frame/ranking to see how they will change in the next week, month etc... Thank for doing that!
In the end, an open discussion with facts should always be welcomed. My posts weren't intended to stir the pot. It was only intended to point out changes in regards to the flip flop marketing and advertising Canon was doing.
So... Is Canon positioning themselves with prices before the big MP comes out or, did Canon allow Nikon to get more market share? I guess with some baseline numbers with a few things I guess we'll wait and see.
Ciao...

Hey hey, thanks fort he well tempered reply.  I am not like angry or anything, as you know when on forums its hard to decipher the tone of the writer....

As to 5d3 cost and fluctuations - Like I said, i paid the full $3500 for mine, and when I look at the weddings I got to shoot with it vs not having it for that period of time (shooting with a 7d mind you) because I was waiting to save a couple hundred on the purchase...the latter outweighs the former.  I could have waited till fall and jumped on the $2800 deals, but that's 10+ weddings of shooting with a 7d - which no doubt I would have done the best I possibly could with that 7d, but wow, night and day difference between the 5d3 and the 7d. 

Now I am on the bargain hunt though because I need to add a backup/secondary body to the bag - with a 5d3 in hand I can play the waiting game --- right nowt he clock is running ---a refurb mk3 vs a $1900 6d.  So what you buy and when you buy, it's really subjective to the user.  With a great primary body I can hunt for the best price...but if I was still on the 7d...a few hundred saved pales in comparison to shooting with the best tools in the peak of the wedding season. 

As to positioning vs nikon and what may lay ahead, I still fully believe that the price of the d800 is dictated by - reduced cost in R&D due to outsourcing to sony, or they are selling it at a near lost to attract those in the niche canon isn't currently filling (could be a combo of both!!!)

I think the falling price of the 6d is because Nikon really hit canon out of left with with the d600.  But --- the price difference between the d600 and d800 is so close that people are bypassing the d600 in favor of the d800.   It's odd too, because the d600 isn't exactly selling like hotcakes - but - it does force canon to allow 6d sales for less than they intended (remeber back before the 6d - new 5d2's were still selling between $1800-2100).

Big MP body...this one is still in the land of giant who knows....will it be a 5d style body and launch in the $3000-4000 range?  Or will it be in a 1 series style and launch in the $7000-9000 range?  If the rumors are right and it's in the 45+ MP range... it's definitely closer to Medium format competition...but that's still in the land of who the heck knows other than the top brass at canon....Neither option is announced yet though so if I may venture a guess...Canon may be trying to get as much margin out of the current line up as they can...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 05:02:30 PM by Chuck Alaimo »
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BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2013, 06:57:59 PM »
For Chuck - I am a career business and marketing professional - mostly tech products of one sort or another.  I'm responsible for identifying market opportunities, funding the tech investigation and market validation before moving on, or not, through any R&D required, if any, to engineering and production.  As the marketing side I, or someone who works for me, have to take responsibility for being part of the program management team to make sure the envisioned product requirements do not get lost in the give and take and other compromises that have to be made in either development or production engineering where it can easily run off the rails. 

Many things can go wrong even while many capable and well-intentioned people work at making the program a success.   It could be that, unless there is great care taken, the specs don't end up meeting the market requirement in terms of expectations or competition or that the materials and other costs end up outside the earlier cost/pricing projection in which case it might not meet the expected return on investment.  It then has to be decided whether to roll up the whole program, even with the large amount of money that has been spent, rather than risk market failure, financial loss and damage to the brand.  This happens more than you might imagine. If everything goes well, marketing has to make the final pricing decisions, decide on a launch campaign, be sure the parts and maintenance people are up to snuff before the roll-out, determine the inventory to be held for both shipment and potential returns and a hundred other things that keep you up at night.  Not to be forgotten is how much of current product that will be obsoleted (but is still on dealer shelves) and how to deal with that to minimize the pain to the distributors.  There really is no end to it.  When people as me what I do I tell them I get paid to worry.  And that's about the size of it.  So I'm not a photographic professional, perhaps as you are,  I'm a hobbyist in that regard but I know how to build and sell things like these within certain boundaries so, yes, I feel I can discuss these matters in a professional way.

pwp

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2013, 08:13:30 PM »
First world problem...

-PW

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2013, 11:17:49 AM »
haha Eloquently stated PW, well done!  Happy Saturday.  You are absolutely right in this case as this is precisely the process that a very advanced first-world, Japanese company like Canon must go through to get our beloved devices to market and people on this side of the Pacific to get them sold to we rabble.  Nearly post-industrial but not quite.  Talking first world versus developing world in this context does, I think,  provide a look at a better management process for providing all kinds of development aid to others in this world who need it.  If we used this much discipline in helping others rather than the failed "big aid" approaches of the last 60 years, more people would have been helped and it would more likely be sustainable.  In hoping to do some good in my "old age" I have completed two graduate degrees in International Affairs and Nonprofit Management and hope to apply some of that business experience in service to an NGO.  You have to believe that great photography by a lot of artists over the years, from NatGeo and untold other photojournalists, has helped instill that feeling in all of us as we were presented with the reality of the suffering of others.  That, in itself, would make for a great advertising series if it hasn't already been done.

Harry Muff

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 03:12:28 PM »
Got my cheque for £160 today. I is happy.   8)
Some cameras… With Canon written on them. Oh, and some lenses… Also with Canon written on them. Oh, and a shiny camera with Fuji written on it too...

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 03:12:28 PM »

thepancakeman

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »
I don't mean this sarcastically at all, this is an honest question:

Do we expect the rebates to end at their scheduled date?  (At which point I'm hoping the body prices will drop back to their pre-rebate levels.)

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »
I don't think anyone can do more than guess on that at this time Pancakeman.  I answered your post to say that I too keep an S100 with me all the time and have enjoyed it very much.  Does surprisingly good work for quick macro shots as well.  Canon already extended the "rebate" program once IIRC which would indicate to me that it is working to their satisfaction.  But there could be many other reasons.  We'll just have to watch over time.

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »