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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 08:48:05 AM »
Spot the odd one out:

Canon 5D3
Canon 180 L macro
Nissin ringflash

Yeah, that threw me at first, too.  But the Canon 430 and 580 he tried had the same 'problem' which meant user error was most likely. Sorry for blaming the 3rd party flash initially!

Of course, it's likely moot since the OP seems much happier blaming his equipment for his failure to fully understand how it works...but maybe he'll revisit this thread and learn something...
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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 08:48:05 AM »

crasher8

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 09:28:37 AM »
Pebcak error

privatebydesign

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 09:32:57 AM »
Whilst Neuro has definitively illustrated the actual workings of Canon cameras with flash in Av mode, via the Manual (RTFM) I find it is interesting that this is a fundamental difference between the way Nikon and Canon cameras work.

Canon Av mode with flash works out two exposures, the subject which it illuminates with the flash, and the background that it illuminates with the shutter speed. With no EV compensation set it will attempt to balance the two. ETTL also has a pre-programmed EV compensation, is strong daylight it will underexpose the subject because it assumes you want it on fill duty. In dark situations it will give you very long shutter speeds. Nikon won't do this, the shutter speed will default to a value pre selected in the menu. With Canons if you want to alter the subject illumination you just need to adjust FEC, alternatively to only alter the background use regular exposure compensation. This gives you a huge amount of control to fine tune exposure in auto modes even in dynamic situations where subject distance is changing, or you are bouncing flash. Nikon cameras can also do separate subject and background exposures via the TTL-BL metering mode, but it is not quite the same as the very useful Canon Av mode with flash and their EV compensation also adjusts the flash output.

When shooting Canon and flash in dynamic situations I normally have the camera in M and the flash in ETTL. In less dynamic situations I go manual everything. For macro images, manual everything, the vast majority of macro shooting is as far from dynamic as it is possible to get short of studio still life images.
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ahab1372

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 10:23:20 AM »

The thing that's not working correctly is the user - that's you, bub. Your 5DIII is set to Auto, your T3i is set to a 1/200 - 1/60 s limit.  You must have used some of those fingers you mention to change that setting on your T3i long ago, and forgotten.
I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe 1/200 - 1/60 was the default on my T3i, so there is a chance the OP never touched it.

polarhannes

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 10:49:48 AM »
True - that is also one of the reasons why Syl Arena is shooting Canon and their Speedlites.
He mentioned it in his book "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlite"

Whilst Neuro has definitively illustrated the actual workings of Canon cameras with flash in Av mode, via the Manual (RTFM) I find it is interesting that this is a fundamental difference between the way Nikon and Canon cameras work.

Canon Av mode with flash works out two exposures, the subject which it illuminates with the flash, and the background that it illuminates with the shutter speed. With no EV compensation set it will attempt to balance the two. ETTL also has a pre-programmed EV compensation, is strong daylight it will underexpose the subject because it assumes you want it on fill duty. In dark situations it will give you very long shutter speeds. Nikon won't do this, the shutter speed will default to a value pre selected in the menu. With Canons if you want to alter the subject illumination you just need to adjust FEC, alternatively to only alter the background use regular exposure compensation. This gives you a huge amount of control to fine tune exposure in auto modes even in dynamic situations where subject distance is changing, or you are bouncing flash. Nikon cameras can also do separate subject and background exposures via the TTL-BL metering mode, but it is not quite the same as the very useful Canon Av mode with flash and their EV compensation also adjusts the flash output.

When shooting Canon and flash in dynamic situations I normally have the camera in M and the flash in ETTL. In less dynamic situations I go manual everything. For macro images, manual everything, the vast majority of macro shooting is as far from dynamic as it is possible to get short of studio still life images.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 10:59:32 AM »
The thing that's not working correctly is the user - that's you, bub. Your 5DIII is set to Auto, your T3i is set to a 1/200 - 1/60 s limit.  You must have used some of those fingers you mention to change that setting on your T3i long ago, and forgotten.
I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe 1/200 - 1/60 was the default on my T3i, so there is a chance the OP never touched it.

According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ;) ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).
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privatebydesign

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 11:06:45 AM »
True - that is also one of the reasons why Syl Arena is shooting Canon and their Speedlites.
He mentioned it in his book "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlite"

The huge advantage Nikon flash users have had over us poor Canon flash users until recently, was the SU-800, that gives a ST-E3-RT like group interface and incredible control, but over optical triggering. The SU-800 really does make the ST-E2 look like a joke. The other cool Nikon feature we still don't have is SU-4 mode, which is just remote manual and optical dumb trigger, that is why Nikon flashes with SU-4 are so useful, you can integrate them into any manufacturers flash setup.

But with post 2012 bodies and the RT system Canon really have leapfrogged Nikon in the flash department.
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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 11:06:45 AM »

MARKOE PHOTOE

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 11:28:15 AM »


According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ;) ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).
[/quote]

'TFM' is this 'The Freakin' Manual' ???  ;D ;D ;D
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 11:31:18 AM »
Hey, you use 'F' as an abbreviation your way, I'll use it mine, ok?   ;D 
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crasher8

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Re: !
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 03:10:26 PM »
So now the OP edits his/her post to a simple exclamation mark. Elaine would be furious!

ahab1372

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Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ;) ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).
I used to have TFM on my phone - I think I should keep it there instead of relying on my memory  ;D

Too bad that the OP killed his/her post, it might have been useful for others

ahab1372

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Re: !
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 03:38:53 PM »
So now the OP edits his/her post to a simple exclamation mark. Elaine would be furious!
Maybe out of shame or embarrassment? But I assume it was out of anger about the lack of compassion

paul13walnut5

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Re: !
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 04:02:19 PM »
Ask a silly question, expect a silly answer.

Walk about with top end professional kit and expect that people will think you know how to use it.  Or read.


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Re: !
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 04:02:19 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: !
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 04:08:35 PM »
Ask a silly question, expect a silly answer.

Walk about with top end professional kit and expect that people will think you know how to use it.  Or read.

+1

Shame/embarrassment gets my vote.  Before his idea that the gear was the problem was shot down by cold, hard evidence, he had no problem blaming Canon and emphasizing it was NOT his fault.

To be fair, though, it seems a call to Canon service didn't help his problem. Sadly, that's not too surprising.
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paul13walnut5

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Re: !
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 04:12:35 PM »
Canon service in the Uk can be pretty grim.

I actually bought a T2i for video because I couldn't depend on the 7D that I bought for video with UDMA cards until the firmware update fixed a problem Canon denied any knowledge of.

I also had a hire pool of 18 MV600 camcorders that broke with the same CCD fault, Canon denied an issue until the Sony CCD problem became widely acknowledged.

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Re: !
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 04:12:35 PM »