April 20, 2014, 11:21:17 AM

Author Topic: 70D or 6D  (Read 29133 times)

Chosenbydestiny

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2013, 08:44:06 AM »
The 70D doesn't have the super sensitive center AF of the 6D, as I've read on canon's website. 70D seems like a really nice companion to 6D though, considering they have a similar button layout and both use sd cards. I'd still consider it or a 60D as a second body later on. I think you'll be happy with the 6D for most normal shooting conditions. Congratulations :)
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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2013, 08:44:06 AM »

iP337

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2013, 04:17:11 AM »
I wouldn't get a 6D and 70D, that would cost too much, for that price a 5D3 would be a better choice.  I would get a 6D and 7D though or just a 70D because I'm pretty sure we can look at the 70D as being a 7D/6D mix in one body, notice the reported resolution is the exact same as the 6D (5472x3648) so I'm pretty sure we can expect the same "line-skipping" video quality as the aliasing 6D :/ It makes sense that Canon in an effort to maximize their investment into the 6D's research and development has just ported the "Down Sampling" code from the 6D to this new 70D. If this is true, than it is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather wait for the 7D2, which I assume will have the same resolution and down sampling method of the 5D3.

Another potential deal breaker would be the signal to noise performance, I've heard Canon say that even though the 70D has a higher pixel density (19.96Mp btw) than their previous 18Mp APS-C sensors the noise performance has not suffered. I would have rather heard that the 70D's senor has a one stop advantage over the previous 18Mp APS-C sensors; so I'm not too optimistic on this matter either.

My last worry is that it is likely using the same SD card controller as the 6D. Which (although UHS-1 rated) was only able to write a maximum of 40MB/s; not fast enough for Magic Lantern's requirement of 80MB/s for continuous 1080p24 raw video (or even 50D's 60MB/s yielding continuous 1500x800 at 24fps).

However the new Live View Auto Focus system is amazing, I think the technology is really the future for all video cameras but I've also read (43rumors I think) that the 70D's implementation of it is actually slower than Panasonic's new contrast detect in the G6/GF6. Maybe the 70D's is more accurate though, or maybe they tested that with one of the slower/smoother STM lenses.

Another great upgrade in the 70D over the 7D is that video compression is now done with the 5D3 and 6D's AVC High Level codec (variable bit rates of 80Mbps Intra and 48Mbps Inter with B frames). These are one of the best option's H.264 has to offer and should show a marked improvement in detail over the previous canon models.

I'm also very happy with the photo features, 7fps burst and 19 cross-type AF are all I need.  Which the 6D lacks but the 6D would be loads better in low-light.

It's no substitution for a 5D3 but it's defiantly an upgrade to the 7D, and even though I am okay with the $1200 price tag the truth is that other than this potentially gimmicky live view af system this camera is still using "yesterday's" technology especially for video and I expect that it's price will drop quickly (just like the 6D) when people start comparing it to the other brands.

Hardproducer

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2013, 07:39:31 AM »
The start price of the 70D will be probably very high. So if you can't wait you should go for the 6D.
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CarlTN

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2013, 05:04:42 PM »
I wouldn't get a 6D and 70D, that would cost too much, for that price a 5D3 would be a better choice.  I would get a 6D and 7D though or just a 70D because I'm pretty sure we can look at the 70D as being a 7D/6D mix in one body, notice the reported resolution is the exact same as the 6D (5472x3648) so I'm pretty sure we can expect the same "line-skipping" video quality as the aliasing 6D :/ It makes sense that Canon in an effort to maximize their investment into the 6D's research and development has just ported the "Down Sampling" code from the 6D to this new 70D. If this is true, than it is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather wait for the 7D2, which I assume will have the same resolution and down sampling method of the 5D3.

Another potential deal breaker would be the signal to noise performance, I've heard Canon say that even though the 70D has a higher pixel density (19.96Mp btw) than their previous 18Mp APS-C sensors the noise performance has not suffered. I would have rather heard that the 70D's senor has a one stop advantage over the previous 18Mp APS-C sensors; so I'm not too optimistic on this matter either.

My last worry is that it is likely using the same SD card controller as the 6D. Which (although UHS-1 rated) was only able to write a maximum of 40MB/s; not fast enough for Magic Lantern's requirement of 80MB/s for continuous 1080p24 raw video (or even 50D's 60MB/s yielding continuous 1500x800 at 24fps).

However the new Live View Auto Focus system is amazing, I think the technology is really the future for all video cameras but I've also read (43rumors I think) that the 70D's implementation of it is actually slower than Panasonic's new contrast detect in the G6/GF6. Maybe the 70D's is more accurate though, or maybe they tested that with one of the slower/smoother STM lenses.

Another great upgrade in the 70D over the 7D is that video compression is now done with the 5D3 and 6D's AVC High Level codec (variable bit rates of 80Mbps Intra and 48Mbps Inter with B frames). These are one of the best option's H.264 has to offer and should show a marked improvement in detail over the previous canon models.

I'm also very happy with the photo features, 7fps burst and 19 cross-type AF are all I need.  Which the 6D lacks but the 6D would be loads better in low-light.

It's no substitution for a 5D3 but it's defiantly an upgrade to the 7D, and even though I am okay with the $1200 price tag the truth is that other than this potentially gimmicky live view af system this camera is still using "yesterday's" technology especially for video and I expect that it's price will drop quickly (just like the 6D) when people start comparing it to the other brands.

Good points.  However, if you are concerned about trying to shoot RAW video via a 6D...there may not ever be a RAW video hack for it.  Even if there is, how could it overcome the aliasing/moire problem enough to justify going to the trouble?

My point, you don't buy a 6D if you primarily shoot video...especially not if you want high quality professional level video.

As for the 6D's price dropping quickly...it's apparent that Canon can build the camera for a lot less than it sold for initially.  I don't know whether this is a reflection of weak consumer demand, or just Canon's ability to undercut the D600's price.  I think it's the latter.

My only concern before I bought the 6D, was whether or not it would hold its value well enough on the used market.  It is so far.  Used units on amazon marketplace are still over $1600.  If at this time (July 2013, 6 months or so after the 6D's initial release) there were a lot of used units "like new", selling down in the $1200 range, then that would be more of a concern.  It's just not happening.  I do wonder how long it will take before you start to see a lot of used units with an asking price down in the $1200 or $1100 range.  Perhaps by the holidays, or else early 2014.  My point with all of this, is that the 6D is just not the dud a lot of people want it to be.

dgatwood

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »
Good points.  However, if you are concerned about trying to shoot RAW video via a 6D...there may not ever be a RAW video hack for it.  Even if there is, how could it overcome the aliasing/moire problem enough to justify going to the trouble?

I'd put the odds somewhere around 99% (+/- 1%) that the problem is caused by a poor scaler algorithm that downsamples the 20MP image to a ~2MP image (1080p) or smaller.  There are many ways to downsample an image, and different algorithms behave differently.  A particularly high quality compressor would choose among various downsampling techniques, depending on the content of the frame in question.

With that in mind, a RAW video mode coupled with a better codec/scaler would almost certainly eliminate the video moiré problem entirely.  There's certainly no sensible reason why any 20MP sensor should not be able to produce a 2MP image without moiré problems.

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 10:21:42 PM »
I've had a 7D and a 5DII. I much prefer the IQ of the full frame camera to the speed and AF abilities of the 7D. I loved my 7D but full frame game my pictures that extra wow factor IMO. It's hard to measure the impact that bigger sensor has.
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sarakoth

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 10:38:40 PM »
My concern with the 70D is that all the benefits are around movie mode and live view... I want better IQ for stills.. if the 6D wasn't so gimped on the AF front I would buy it.. if the 70D improved IQ over previous crop sensors I would buy it.. as it stands I don't want to buy either but will have too or otherwise wait another couple of years for a 6D2 assuming they fix/improve the AF.

I really hate this merging of photo and video in one unit.. all you do is compromise on both and increase the cost..

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 10:38:40 PM »

jdramirez

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 10:51:45 PM »
Just a thought on pop up flashes, nice for snapshots in low light, but not so effective for fill light.   

?  what do you mean?  a pop up flash is fine for filling in some shadows. It doesn't need to be nearly as powerful if used as just a fill...

I was outside yesterday morning and I tried to used a 430 ex ii for some fill flash... and the sun was winning that battle.  UGH!!!.

Did you haveit switched on?  A 430ex ii will work as fill flash in any light??

It was on... the photos were about 15 ish feet away from me... so it wasn't doing the trick. 
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XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

BPLOL

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2013, 12:28:12 AM »
I was waiting for the 70D for a long time, until I decided to buy the 6D three months ago.

Previously I've used a XTi with EF-S 10-22 and 17-55 f2.8, plus 70-200 f4 L IS, and I really wanted a 7D or 60D replacement (so I could stay with both EF-S lenses), but I must say that I do not regret buying the 6D. As a matter of fact, every time I use high ISO I know that I'm using the best available.

Also, I don't know if I'm luck, but my EF 24-105 f4 L nails focus 99% of the time, even in low light conditions with the outer points (but I don't do sports, so I cannot say about tracking). It's night and day compared with my old XTi - image quality, focus accuracy of all points - it gets the picture I need every time I press the button.

I only miss the 10-22.

Had not experimented, would I buy the 6D today with the 70D available? Probably not, since I would save some money and also would not need to sell my lenses to go FF (I'm buying a condo, everything counts). Having experimented the 6D, would I change it for the 70D today because of its specs? Nope.

I think the only 70D feature I would like to see on the 6D is the new focus on video. That is really cool.

CarlTN

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2013, 12:51:07 AM »
Good points.  However, if you are concerned about trying to shoot RAW video via a 6D...there may not ever be a RAW video hack for it.  Even if there is, how could it overcome the aliasing/moire problem enough to justify going to the trouble?

I'd put the odds somewhere around 99% (+/- 1%) that the problem is caused by a poor scaler algorithm that downsamples the 20MP image to a ~2MP image (1080p) or smaller.  There are many ways to downsample an image, and different algorithms behave differently.  A particularly high quality compressor would choose among various downsampling techniques, depending on the content of the frame in question.

With that in mind, a RAW video mode coupled with a better codec/scaler would almost certainly eliminate the video moiré problem entirely.  There's certainly no sensible reason why any 20MP sensor should not be able to produce a 2MP image without moiré problems.

That's nice to know.  So is Magic Lantern or someone else going to hack the 6D to produce RAW video output?

CarlTN

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2013, 01:02:03 AM »
I was waiting for the 70D for a long time, until I decided to buy the 6D three months ago.

Previously I've used a XTi with EF-S 10-22 and 17-55 f2.8, plus 70-200 f4 L IS, and I really wanted a 7D or 60D replacement (so I could stay with both EF-S lenses), but I must say that I do not regret buying the 6D. As a matter of fact, every time I use high ISO I know that I'm using the best available.

Also, I don't know if I'm luck, but my EF 24-105 f4 L nails focus 99% of the time, even in low light conditions with the outer points (but I don't do sports, so I cannot say about tracking). It's night and day compared with my old XTi - image quality, focus accuracy of all points - it gets the picture I need every time I press the button.

I only miss the 10-22.

Had not experimented, would I buy the 6D today with the 70D available? Probably not, since I would save some money and also would not need to sell my lenses to go FF (I'm buying a condo, everything counts). Having experimented the 6D, would I change it for the 70D today because of its specs? Nope.

I think the only 70D feature I would like to see on the 6D is the new focus on video. That is really cool.

My situation was similar, except that came from the 50D, and I wanted to go to a full frame anyway.  Had already planned on selling my crop lenses.  It took a max of about 2 weeks to sell each one.  No regrets whatsoever.  Well one other difference, I had rented a 10-22 Canon lens, and it sucked.  Wide zooms on crop cameras just don't deliver the goods.  I've rented a number of others, and owned two Sigmas and a Tokina. 

GaabNZ

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2013, 02:56:53 AM »
GaabNZ congrats on your purchase of the 6D. Please post your feelings on the camera after you have used it for a couple of days. I hope they are all positive.

Loving it so much.  I have found the upgrade from the 600D to be huge.

I've not struggled with focusing at all, in fact I've found it so much better.  Photography is not a job for me, just a hobby and I also don't take fast moving sports so, so far so good.

I love the bigger size of the camera body and having the top lcd and adjustments there is fantastic.

Also, I don't know if I'm luck, but my EF 24-105 f4 L nails focus 99% of the time, even in low light conditions with the outer points (but I don't do sports, so I cannot say about tracking). It's night and day compared with my old XTi - image quality, focus accuracy of all points - it gets the picture I need every time I press the button.

I only miss the 10-22.

I feel exactly the same here.  The quality of images are far better than my 600D.  The high iso shots I am taking without flash indoors under normal lighting are just amazing.  They are just so clear.

My keeper rate already has improved massively.  I'm looking forward to getting outside a bit now and really trying to learn what it can do.

I would be interested to try the 17-40L as well to replace my Sigma 10-20mm crop lens.  I'm really liking the images I'm taking on the 24-105L kit lens.  I'm finding it a really nice walk around lens.

sarakoth

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2013, 11:21:40 PM »
GaabNZ congrats on your purchase of the 6D. Please post your feelings on the camera after you have used it for a couple of days. I hope they are all positive.

Loving it so much.  I have found the upgrade from the 600D to be huge.

I've not struggled with focusing at all, in fact I've found it so much better.  Photography is not a job for me, just a hobby and I also don't take fast moving sports so, so far so good.

Also, I don't know if I'm luck, but my EF 24-105 f4 L nails focus 99% of the time, even in low light conditions with the outer points (but I don't do sports, so I cannot say about tracking). It's night and day compared with my old XTi - image quality, focus accuracy of all points - it gets the picture I need every time I press the button.

I only miss the 10-22.

I feel exactly the same here.  The quality of images are far better than my 600D.  The high iso shots I am taking without flash indoors under normal lighting are just amazing.  They are just so clear.

My keeper rate already has improved massively.  I'm looking forward to getting outside a bit now and really trying to learn what it can do.

I would be interested to try the 17-40L as well to replace my Sigma 10-20mm crop lens.  I'm really liking the images I'm taking on the 24-105L kit lens.  I'm finding it a really nice walk around lens.

Glad to hear it is going well...

Can I ask what sort of shots you have been taking?? You say the focusing is much better than your 600D.. in what way? speed? accuracy?

I am looking at coming from a 500D so I imagine I will find the jump as such similar to you.

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2013, 11:21:40 PM »

Wildfire

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2013, 01:01:54 PM »
Can I ask what sort of shots you have been taking?? You say the focusing is much better than your 600D.. in what way? speed? accuracy?

I used to have a T3i as well. I will say that the AF on the 6D is both faster and accurate, but you may or may not notice that. The biggest difference is the low-light autofocus performance: you will be blown away by the kind of dimly-lit scenes in which the 6D's center point will lock focus quickly and accurately.

Additionally, you'll enjoy knowing you can take photographs at 12800 ISO that look far better than the T3i at 6400 ISO ever did.

CarlTN

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2013, 01:51:25 PM »
Can I ask what sort of shots you have been taking?? You say the focusing is much better than your 600D.. in what way? speed? accuracy?

I used to have a T3i as well. I will say that the AF on the 6D is both faster and accurate, but you may or may not notice that. The biggest difference is the low-light autofocus performance: you will be blown away by the kind of dimly-lit scenes in which the 6D's center point will lock focus quickly and accurately.

Additionally, you'll enjoy knowing you can take photographs at 12800 ISO that look far better than the T3i at 6400 ISO ever did.

The 6D's servo autofocus menu is highly tweakable, and it can work very well if the situation you are guessing will align with that setting, actually does work.  It doesn't always work.  But basically, I'm talking about attempting to servo autofocus in relatively low light, such as a room which seems well lit to your eye, but not to the camera.  I'm not sure how much better the 5D3 or 1Dx would servo AF in such lighting.  Also heavily depends on the lens attached.

As for still shooting with autofocus in very dark lighting, that center point is like a dream.  I've gotten it to lock focus on dark chair legs against medium gray carpet, in a room lit only by the equivalent of a couple of candles...on the opposite side of the room!  There is no direct light on the chair legs, and only very dim indirect light on the carpet.  And this is with an f/4 70-200 lens.  My 135 f/2, even though it takes in a lot more light...sometimes hunts.  I think it's because the lens elements that do the focusing, are heavier, and also have a longer way to travel (even if I set the focus limiter to 1.6 meters rather than 0.9), than with the 70-200 f/4.  Or it also could be some kind of quirk going on, where the 6D just does not like the 135 as much as it likes the 70-200....I don't know.

What's the ISO for a normal exposure in the above situation?  102,400...at 1/5 of a second with the f/4 lens!!  That center point is way beyond the ability of the image sensor...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 01:54:49 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2013, 01:51:25 PM »