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Author Topic: The last Canon crop sensor - ever  (Read 40419 times)

jrista

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »
Peace out guys. Sorry the thread got derailed...the debate was peaceful at first...

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »

schill

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #151 on: August 14, 2013, 02:50:59 PM »
and what i h.... has that to do with the original question?  which AF is the better one? D800 or what ever?
d800 has a good AF, which one is better in Canon? 1dx, 5d?6D  7D
TELL ME

1DX, 5D3, 7D, 6D in that order.  However, the 6D actually does focus on stuff.  It's not just a naked sensor out there to be poked fun at.  If the 6D were only a sensor and not a camera, then yes it would be a poor value.  Such is not the case.

I don't think any of the sensors work all that well on their own without a camera wrapped around them. :)  And they're a bit too light to use as paperweights.

At least the FF ones might be a little heavier and work better as paperweights.

neuroanatomist

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #152 on: August 14, 2013, 02:51:57 PM »
and what i h.... has that to do with the original question?  which AF is the better one? D800 or what ever?
d800 has a good AF, which one is better in THE  Canon? 1dx, 5d? 6D,  7D
TELL ME

Mikael, your first post in this rapidly degenarating thread was:

Image quality is about more than sensor, though. If you use a 6D, and end up with the best frame being one in which a Cheetah's head is pointed away from the camera...well, that would be a reject. Higher frame rate, better AF system, more reach....sometimes those things are far more important to getting the best image quality (not just pixels and noise, but subject framing and pose as well) than a sensor. It is all relative.

tell me Jrista, image quality, what is it more than the sensor and the measurements for example DXO does to classify a sensor?
color quality/ color resolution
resolution lp/mm
dynamic range
noise and high iso properties
measurable values

or is it your own "Canon"  references about your own equipment  who are important and you will spread?

The whole point of that discussion was about a faster frame rate facilitating captures of fast-moving subjects where small differences in positioning of a body part can make the difference between a keeper and a reject.

Your point, as usual, is that DxOMark is the be-all-end-all of taking pictures.



Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:54:07 PM by neuroanatomist »
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CarlTN

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #153 on: August 14, 2013, 02:55:16 PM »
and what i h.... has that to do with the original question?  which AF is the better one? D800 or what ever?
d800 has a good AF, which one is better in Canon? 1dx, 5d?6D  7D
TELL ME

1DX, 5D3, 7D, 6D in that order.  However, the 6D actually does focus on stuff.  It's not just a naked sensor out there to be poked fun at.  If the 6D were only a sensor and not a camera, then yes it would be a poor value.  Such is not the case.

I don't think any of the sensors work all that well on their own without a camera wrapped around them. :)  And they're a bit too light to use as paperweights.

At least the FF ones might be a little heavier and work better as paperweights.

The 6D is full frame and weighs less than the 7D, and how much does something have to weigh to make a good paperweight?

CarlTN

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #154 on: August 14, 2013, 02:56:24 PM »




Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.

Thanks for sharing that image!

schill

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #155 on: August 14, 2013, 03:18:32 PM »
and what i h.... has that to do with the original question?  which AF is the better one? D800 or what ever?
d800 has a good AF, which one is better in Canon? 1dx, 5d?6D  7D
TELL ME

1DX, 5D3, 7D, 6D in that order.  However, the 6D actually does focus on stuff.  It's not just a naked sensor out there to be poked fun at.  If the 6D were only a sensor and not a camera, then yes it would be a poor value.  Such is not the case.

I don't think any of the sensors work all that well on their own without a camera wrapped around them. :)  And they're a bit too light to use as paperweights.

At least the FF ones might be a little heavier and work better as paperweights.

The 6D is full frame and weighs less than the 7D, and how much does something have to weigh to make a good paperweight?

I meant the FF sensor alone would be heavier than a crop sensor alone [1] and make a marginally better, although still ineffective, paperweight.  I think the complete 6D and 7D would both make adequate paperweights in most situations.  But, the 1DX would make a better one - if weight is the only guiding factor (although I don't know the weight of the 1DX either - on Canon's product page it is listed as TBA).

[1] I'm guessing, based on size.  I do not actually know the weights of any of the sensors.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 03:20:06 PM by schill »

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2013, 03:20:09 PM »




Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.

Thanks for sharing that image!

I am sure that their scores match what the rating criteria is..... The problem is that very few people will agree as to how important each item should be and how it is weighted in the criteria. This is why any attempt to rate a complex system for diverse users with diverse needs is doomed to failure.

It a lot like saying "what's the best camera", and if you rate money as no object and I rate it as by far the most important, you pick a 1DX and I end up with a powershot....
The best camera is the one in your hands

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2013, 03:20:09 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #157 on: August 14, 2013, 03:46:03 PM »
I am sure that their scores match what the rating criteria is.....

Right.  That's why it makes sense that for two 500mm lenses, the Scores are tied.  One lens delivers higher resolution (despite being mounted on a camera with lower resolution), has less distortion, less vignetting, and less CA.  But they have a tie Score.  You see, the Scores do not really depend on the Metrics.  The rating criteria for the Score involves performance in 150 lux illumination - and since both are f/4 lenses, they are tied.  DxO's logo has the words "Image Science" incorporated into the graphic.  If my science involved publishing conclusions that didn't match my own data, I'd be out of a job.
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CarlTN

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #158 on: August 14, 2013, 03:46:23 PM »




Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.

Thanks for sharing that image!


I am sure that their scores match what the rating criteria is..... The problem is that very few people will agree as to how important each item should be and how it is weighted in the criteria. This is why any attempt to rate a complex system for diverse users with diverse needs is doomed to failure.

It a lot like saying "what's the best camera", and if you rate money as no object and I rate it as by far the most important, you pick a 1DX and I end up with a powershot....

Or we meet in the middle and just buy a 7D to appease everyone?

AprilForever

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #159 on: August 14, 2013, 04:03:23 PM »




Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.

Thanks for sharing that image!


I am sure that their scores match what the rating criteria is..... The problem is that very few people will agree as to how important each item should be and how it is weighted in the criteria. This is why any attempt to rate a complex system for diverse users with diverse needs is doomed to failure.

It a lot like saying "what's the best camera", and if you rate money as no object and I rate it as by far the most important, you pick a 1DX and I end up with a powershot....

Or we meet in the middle and just buy a 7D to appease everyone?

I love my 7D! Yes, there will probably always be crop sensors, long long into the future, because they make sense.
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CarlTN

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #160 on: August 14, 2013, 04:26:45 PM »




Sorry...I don't really mean that about DxOMark.  But I ran across that graphic earlier (it came up in a google search for 'D800 blurry images') and I was just itching to post it.  To reiterate my viewpoint on DxOMark, their Measurements are valid and useful.  But their Scores...are analgous to fire hydrants for pooches.

Thanks for sharing that image!


I am sure that their scores match what the rating criteria is..... The problem is that very few people will agree as to how important each item should be and how it is weighted in the criteria. This is why any attempt to rate a complex system for diverse users with diverse needs is doomed to failure.

It a lot like saying "what's the best camera", and if you rate money as no object and I rate it as by far the most important, you pick a 1DX and I end up with a powershot....

Or we meet in the middle and just buy a 7D to appease everyone?

I love my 7D! Yes, there will probably always be crop sensors, long long into the future, because they make sense.

Agreed, they work well in general, are cheaper to make, smaller in size...thus the camera can be smaller...to argue their demise is not really necessary or realistic.  What form factor they will use in the future, is another question.  It just depends on what sells and what does not.

Anyone bought that 41 MP phone?

Jim O

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #161 on: August 14, 2013, 05:03:35 PM »
As for names, it was the "Mr. Bigshot" you called Neuro.

Actually, he called him "Dr. Bigshot".  ;D
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CarlTN

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »
I looked at 80-400VR from Nikon and F-8 together with d800 and compared it to my bellowed lens 70-200/2,8ISMK2 from Canon together with 5dmk2
No problems to se that 80-400 at 200mm together with d800 is a lot sharper
I can see the boards in the wall with the Nikon combo

Not sure why any of the above would need comparing?  The D800 is 36mp, the 5D2 is 21mp.  At the same focal length, one out-resolves the other.  So?  Neither of those cameras is a crop sensor, which is what this thread is supposed to be primarily about.

A better comparison would be between the D7100 and the 7D...and with the same Nikon lens...manually focused...with an adaptor for use on the Canon body (since there's no good way to adapt a Canon lens to a Nikon body).  That way you could see which sensor resolves more detail at the same focal length.  For all I know, it might be a close call, at least at lower ISO.

Then, somehow adapt that new 41mp camera phone to the Nikon lens above, and see if it resolves more detail...and how well it servo autofocuses...while juggling your 5D2 and D800 with the other hand. :P
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 05:24:21 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »

Sporgon

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #163 on: August 14, 2013, 05:23:02 PM »
I looked at 80-400VR from Nikon and F-8 together with d800 and compared it to my bellowed lens 70-200/2,8ISMK2 from Canon together with 5dmk2
No problems to se that 80-400 at 200mm together with d800 is a lot sharper
I can see the boards in the wall with the Nikon combo, there are also a different color depth in Nikon, using the same profile in Camera Raw. This due the CFA

Errrr......... That isn't noise  I see in the sky of the D800 shot is it ?

No ! Can't be.

( go buy 6D, shoot some skys and enjoy the quality ).

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #164 on: August 14, 2013, 05:36:02 PM »
I looked at 80-400VR from Nikon and F-8 together with d800 and compared it to my bellowed lens 70-200/2,8ISMK2 from Canon together with 5dmk2
No problems to se that 80-400 at 200mm together with d800 is a lot sharper
I can see the boards in the wall with the Nikon combo, there are also a different color depth in Nikon, using the same profile in Camera Raw. This due the CFA, in this case it shows most in the green color and nuances
That's in very different light (just look at the brightness of the walls facing to the right), so any colour comparisons don't hold up. To my eyes, even with the destructively large dose of sharpening on the Canon shot, the Nikon doesn't reveal any more detail.

And yes, that is noise in the sky in the D800 shot.
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #164 on: August 14, 2013, 05:36:02 PM »