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Author Topic: EOS-M or New EF lens?  (Read 5079 times)

Jixr

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EOS-M or New EF lens?
« on: September 09, 2013, 10:04:37 AM »
Hi everyone, so here is the deal. (First post as well )

I'm fairly new to photography, ( at least seriously ) and I currently have a T3i with the kit lens, 40mm pancake, 50mm 1.8, a cheap tamron 75-300mm, and a 8mm fisheye.

I've been wanting something a little more wide than my 40 ( my most used lens ) and have been looking at a few used 20 - 35mm primes, but then I noticed in that price range I could get an EOS-M with the 20mm prime.


I really like the idea of the EOS-M, as its much more portable than my t3i and is something I could stuff in a pocket and take with me easily without loading up all my t3i gear and have a massive camera dangling around my neck.

Though there are a few things holding me back from going for it. (i've not yet tried one in person, but will see if a local store has a display unit )

- Autofocus, really that bad?
- battery life, reports are its pretty low.
- can you turn the screen off? i'd rather have the screen off and just point guess and click.
- how good is it in low light conditions?
- what about capturing moving objects? ( most reviews i've read say its great for stationary objects, but capturing moving people is a bit difficult )


What are your thoughts?
-

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EOS-M or New EF lens?
« on: September 09, 2013, 10:04:37 AM »

jebrady03

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 10:44:24 AM »
Many of your questions can be answered by using your T3i in a similar manner and mentally stepping up the results. AF tracking and speed should be better than the T3i using live view. So if you're okay or slightly disappointed with the T3i, you'll be happy with the M. Set your kit lens to 22mm and 4.0 aperture and 2 stops higher ISO than you would normally use in low light and know that your shutter speeds will be equal but the ISO will be much better (2+ stops).  Shoot in live view with the screen turned in and you'll know how well that'll work with the M.

Now personally, I really like the M+22 and find it to be a good low light camera for mostly stationary people at f2.

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 11:01:41 AM »
- AF is fine for stills but not good in servo because it is slow.
- Battery life is worse because the battery is smaller and it is driving the screen all the time, but that is a general disadvantage for this class of cameras.  You could always get extra batteries.
- I don't think the screen could be turned off, and I don't see why you'd want to.  There aren't many physical controls, and the touch screen is a great way to change the settings.
- It's OK in low light conditions, about what you'd expect for a Canon APS-C camera.  The 22 f/2 helps a lot because you can use it wide open to minimize the ISO, which degrades the image.

In general, I don't see the M replacing a DSLR.  It's a nice travel option because of its size, but it has signficant limitations.

Jixr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 11:05:20 AM »
good suggestion.

I don't really care for the EOS-M to equal the photo quality of my T3i,

I just want something as portable as my cell phone, but better picture quality than a phone or cheaper point and shoot. Mainly I want to use it when I go out, but if I'm going somewhere where I'll want good pictures i'll just bring my big rig.

and since the kit can be had for $350-400 new, its one of the cheapest mirrorless cams, and is probably better than most point and shoots in its price range.

Though all my camera gear is super budget ( got a BNIB T3i kit for $500 ) and except my fisheye, all my len's have been had for under $100

So i'm kind of nervous about buying some ( to me ) expensive new gear for a hobby.

Though If I do get one, I'll just buy from a place that has a good return policy.


Most of the reviews and youtube videos have been from professional photographers with big budgets. As much as I would like a 5d MK3 with L lens's, That won't happen. Its hard to take some reviews seriously when they don't keep budget shoppers like me in mind.

I also have a motorcycle, and go out riding on day trips a bit, and it also seems like a good camera that I can toss in my backpack and go vs risking my entire gear on the road.

I also have a photo-journal-blog thing, and it sounds so much easier to bring a smaller camera to certain locations than getting weird looks for going around with a camera on me, and a few times I've been asked to put it in a bag or not to take pictures ( which I respect their rules )

Also, does the EOS-M have a wireless remote feature? I have a thing for my iphone where I can use it as a IR remote, and would love to have that feature on a smaller cam ( stick it on my Joby and perfect )
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:14:38 AM by Jixr »

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 11:35:09 AM »
Also, does the EOS-M have a wireless remote feature? I have a thing for my iphone where I can use it as a IR remote, and would love to have that feature on a smaller cam ( stick it on my Joby and perfect )

Yes, the EOS M can be triggered by an IR remote such as the Canon RC-6.
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jebrady03

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »
the image quality will be equal to or better than your DSLR. I've taken my M on social gatherings at night and people are using their point and shoot or cell phones for pictures and they are having to use flash and I don't and my images are still better. I see that as a huge advantage. Based on the description of your use of the M, it sounds like a good option.

Jixr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »
I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )

Good to know about the flash, I don't own a hotshoe flash, and never use the flash on my T3i

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »

sdsr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 12:00:45 PM »

- Autofocus, really that bad?
- battery life, reports are its pretty low.
- can you turn the screen off? i'd rather have the screen off and just point guess and click.
- how good is it in low light conditions?
- what about capturing moving objects? ( most reviews i've read say its great for stationary objects, but capturing moving people is a bit difficult )

What are your thoughts?
-

Autofocus - depends what you mean by "bad".  After the firmware fix it focuses quickly and, most of the time, accurately.  If you mostly photograph big things - i.e. anything bigger than the rather large focus points - that aren't moving, it's fine.  If you need precise focus, especially selecting among small things, you need to magnify, which slows the process down quite a bit and isn't always accurate anyway.  It's a slower process than your Rebel, which I would rather use any day as far as ergonomics are concerned.  Plus, there's quite a delay between taking shots.  Whether any of this matters to you I can't say, of course.  You may find that the size of the camera makes up for it.

Battery life - shorter than your Rebel, certainly

Screen off -  sorry, but "point, guess and click" when you can't even see where you're focusing sounds absurd to me, especially since accurate focus is as important as anything else in taking a photo.  But if you don't care how any particular photo turns out and like the element of surprise, go for it.  (Actually, I'm not sure if you can use it that way - have never tried.)

low light - the image quality is at least as good as your Rebel (I suspect better, but I sold my Rebel before buying an M so I've not done any direct comparisons).  In my experience it has exactly the same focus performance as in daylight.  Overall, I suspect you won't find anything nearly as good for use in low light in a camera at or near this size/price.

moving objects - haven't a clue; haven't tried using mine for that.

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 12:21:13 PM »
I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )


Not mistaken at all.  Different image processor though, digic 5 versus digic 4.  Worth about a stop of difference in terms of noise, image for image, but all other things aren't equal. Different beasts for different applications.

AF is good for class.  Wide flexizone mode +bin icon makes it fairly intelligent and pretty quick.

Jixr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 12:27:51 PM »
as far as turning the screen off, I was hoping that like the DSLR's you can turn live view off and speed up the shutter action.

I guess really I just need to try one out in a store ( though most of the time they either don't work or have a dead battery, etc. ( and probably won't have the 22mm prime version on display )

I also figure If I get one later on I can always get the EF adaptor, and have one of my bigger lens's on it and not have to hot swap lens's so often. ( but on the adaptor, wouldn't the adaptor also increase the focal distance of a lens since its further away from the sensor? )


I'm also hesitant to buy since the new version will be ( supposively ) announced soon. But I do have a feeling they won't be as cheap as the current model is now. ( and I don't see a point in a mirrorless that cost equal or more to a full sized DSLR )

I also found a used EOS-M on the local craigslist with the 22mm prime for $200, but it has a small crack in the screen.

might check it out, since If I get one it will basically be a beater camera. ( I doubt canon would make these screens replaceable due to their low price )
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:59:37 PM by Jixr »

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 01:30:14 PM »
I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )

Not mistaken at all. 

They're both 18 MP sensors, so they must be the same?  The 1D X is an 18 MP camera, I wonder if that's the same sensor?   ::)

Seriously, though - the T3i and EOS M do not use the same sensor, although the EOS M and the T4i do use the same sensor (as do the SL1 and T5i, and that sensor is different from the one in the M and T4i).

How are they different?  The most obvious way is that the EOS M and T4i have Hybrid CMOS AF, meaning some pixels on the image sensor are dedicated to phase detect AF (relatively sparse, compared to the DPAF of the 70D, and covering a more restricted area than the Hybrid CMOS II sensor in the SL1 and T5i).  But I also suspeect the OLPF (aka AA filter) is slightly weaker on the M/T4i compared to the T3i (for example, the former appears slghtly sharper in TDP's ISO 12233 crops).
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comsense

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 02:40:32 PM »
The EOS M ver 1 does not replace SLR. So if money is no issue, go ahead and buy one. Its good for anything not moving. OTOH, if money is limited, it would serve you better to save it for some good glass.
Even if you assume it is as good as the most optimistic view here, a better glass would have more impact on your photos.

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 02:50:59 PM »
Even if you assume it is as good as the most optimistic view here, a better glass would have more impact on your photos.

Quite true.  But the M + 22 is a lot smaller, which the OP also mentions being important.  Having a good camera that you bring along because it's small enough will have more impact on your photos than the larger camera with better glass that you leave at home because it's too big.   ;)

To the OP - what's your budget for this purchase?
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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 02:50:59 PM »

Jixr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »
Well,

I went to check out my local camera shop ( the biggest camera shop in Austin Tx ), asked to look at the EOS-M, the guy told me they didn't have any except for a used one.
Asking why not, he said simply they were DOA and have only sold 3 in the last year, and returned the rest back to canon.

My budget is $400 MAX, really would like to keep it under $350 if possible, he pointed me to a Nikon S1. Spec wise its not as good. but for $350 it has what I need.

What i need in order of importance.
- portable, something that can easily go in a back pocket, or toss in a bag. ( something to bring with me on motorcycle trips, every day walk around etc. ) ( otherwise I would just go pick up one of the several T2i's on the local CL for $200 )
- budget, under $400 new ( its gonna be a beater camera, so if It breaks I don't want to be out tons to replace it )
- Quality: faster and better than a P&S or phone, but not expecting to match my T3i
- Wide angle ( preferably a fast prime ) with decent low light performance.

I'm definately looking to use it as a ( best camera is the one you  have on you ) kinda thing. Something I can use to take a few pictures, then toss in my bag or pocket and continue on my way.

Don't care for: Flash, touchscreen, viewfinder, video performance, or sticking with a certain brand.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:38:39 PM by Jixr »

sdsr

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 03:38:49 PM »

as far as turning the screen off, I was hoping that like the DSLR's you can turn live view off and speed up the shutter action.


If you turn live view off on a DSLR you use the viewfinder to focus; if you turned off the screen on an M, you would see nothing at all - there's no viewfinder, so you would, in one sense, be shooting in the dark.... You might as well close both eyes while you're at it!

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Re: EOS-M or New EF lens?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 03:38:49 PM »