August 01, 2014, 05:30:24 AM

Author Topic: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?  (Read 5837 times)

LewisShermer

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This is just a question that I've asked myself and always wondered if there's a technical/marketing reason behind having a crop sensor in the 1D range?

I've never used one but I have used the 1Ds mk3 extensively for the last 4 years. This is a full frame camera but I am lead to believe that the 1D mk3 is a crop sensor? the 1Dx is a full frame but the 1D mk4 is crop and a 1Ds mk4 was never produced.

from what I've read recently the crop is 1.3 whereas the XXD XXXD and XXXXD are 1.6 and many share the same sensor.

does the 1D range accept EF-s lenses? Is there an obvious IQ difference between say a 1Ds mk3 and a 1D mk3?

I use the 1Ds mk3 in the studio I run at a watch design company to shoot mainly adverts/catalogue shots but for my personal work (weddings/fashion/arty stuff) I use a 5D mk3 which I progressed from a 7D/60D.

the 5D mk3 raw files are a lot nicer to work with than the 1Ds mk3 and an obvious step up from the 7D/60D which share the same chip (yet I got more pleasing imagery from the 60D)

My original question of "how come the 1D range is a crop sensor?" then begs the additional question of if you're spending £4000+ on a body, wouldn't you want a full frame and why would you compromise on the IQ of a crop sensor? Where do the 1D mk3 / 1D mk4 files fall within the range of sensor IQ and Digic logic??
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ahsanford

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »
I believe it was born out of the need to get higher framerate than what you could pull off with a FF sensor.  Pro sports / wildlife guys often selected the 1D4 over the 1Ds rigs for that reason (as well as length).  But forum folks, please set me straight if that is incorrect.

But I can speak to EF-S.  No compatibility.  Just the red dot on the mount -- standard EF lenses are the only option that work natively.  I suppose someone could try to make an adapter which would have nutty image circle problems on wider focal lengths, but who would do that?  Unless you really love the 17-55 F/2.8 or the new Sigma F/1.8 zoom, I'd be hard pressed to see someone go to such lengths to use a cheap lens on a pro body.

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neuroanatomist

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 11:31:06 AM »
It was based on cost.  With the lithography equipment of the day, APS-H was the largest size CMOS sensor that could be imaged with a single pass of the stepper; a FF sensor required three passes, and significantly higher cost.

See p.11 of Canon's FF White Paper.
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rs

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 11:34:29 AM »
The original 1D was released in mid 2001 before 36x24mm sensors were viable for a production camera - so it was made with the largest sensor available at the time - a 1.3x crop sensor. The mount was EF, and EF-S (which only has an imaging circle big enough for a 1.6x crop sensor) hadn't even been introduced back then (that happened in 2003).

The first ever production FF DSLR was the Contax N of spring 2002. The 1Ds was the second FF DSLR, launched in September 2002, allowing of EF lenses with the conventional film AoV.

The 1D successors carried on with its crop sensor, allowing for fast sensor readout and consequently frame rates, and the 1Ds range carried on with full frame sensors, and slower readout/shooting.

The 1D X is an amalgamation of these lines.
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Meh

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 11:45:25 AM »
Noooooooooooooooooo, don't ask such questions 'round these parts... the APS-H boys will pounce!!!

ahsanford

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 11:54:57 AM »
Noooooooooooooooooo, don't ask such questions 'round these parts... the APS-H boys will pounce!!!

Good point.  Those folks loooooove their not too big / not too small porridge -- it's just right.

It's kind of cult-like, actually.  There is a non-trivial possibility these folks go back to the therapist about relapsing into APS-H forum discussions, spooning in bed with their 1D4 while watching Beaches or Marley and Me, and threatening Canon executives' families for abandoning the format... all because of your question. 

Jerk. :D

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mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 12:35:50 PM »
There's one good reason why APS-H isn't all that great: No dedicated WA lenses...  ;)
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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 12:35:50 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 12:42:23 PM »
There's one good reason why APS-H isn't all that great: No dedicated WA lenses...  ;)

You mean a rectilinear WA lens, right?  Wouldn't the fishbowl work?

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mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 12:59:34 PM »
There's one good reason why APS-H isn't all that great: No dedicated WA lenses...  ;)

You mean a rectilinear WA lens, right?  ...

- A

correct
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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »
The original 1D was released in mid 2001 before 36x24mm sensors were viable for a production camera - so it was made with the largest sensor available at the time - a 1.3x crop sensor. The mount was EF, and EF-S (which only has an imaging circle big enough for a 1.6x crop sensor) hadn't even been introduced back then (that happened in 2003).

The first ever production FF DSLR was the Contax N of spring 2002. The 1Ds was the second FF DSLR, launched in September 2002, allowing of EF lenses with the conventional film AoV.

The 1D successors carried on with its crop sensor, allowing for fast sensor readout and consequently frame rates, and the 1Ds range carried on with full frame sensors, and slower readout/shooting.

The 1D X is an amalgamation of these lines.
Very nicely explained!
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neuroanatomist

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »
The first ever production FF DSLR was the Contax N of spring 2002. The 1Ds was the second FF DSLR, launched in September 2002, allowing of EF lenses with the conventional film AoV.

Worth noting that the Contax N used a Phillips CCD sensor, and the 1Ds was CMOS.  Similarly, the original 1D was a CCD sensor (with a 1/500 s Xsync, and made by Panasonic), while the 1D II and subsequent models were CMOS. 
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mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 04:10:04 PM »
The first ever production FF DSLR was the Contax N of spring 2002. The 1Ds was the second FF DSLR, launched in September 2002, allowing of EF lenses with the conventional film AoV.


Worth noting that the Contax N used a Phillips CCD sensor, and the 1Ds was CMOS.  Similarly, the original 1D was a CCD sensor (with a 1/500 s Xsync, and made by Panasonic), while the 1D II and subsequent models were CMOS.


Philips ;)

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pwp

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 06:22:36 PM »
Noooooooooooooooooo, don't ask such questions 'round these parts... the APS-H boys will pounce!!!
Ah-ha! Thanks! An APS-H thread!  8)

I've loved the format since it began with the 1D. But sadly it's now consigned to history.  :-[
That's why so many APS-H aficionados are keen to see a true professional level 7DII.

We have our FF bodies for WA, but the x1.3 crop sensor on my 1D4 takes my 70-200 f/2.8 and 300 f/2.8 glass into another universe.

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 06:22:36 PM »

Apop

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 06:33:20 PM »
I think it's a shame if they completely abandon the 1.3

It's a nice compromise , some extra 'reach' compared to FF, and bigger sensor than 1.6.

Act444

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 06:46:40 PM »
I would like to see a 1.3x sensor in the new 7D, perhaps at 25MP, if only for improved high ISO performance compared to 1.6x. Or, if they can vastly improve 1.6x high ISO, even better.

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 06:46:40 PM »