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Author Topic: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature  (Read 11720 times)

paul13walnut5

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2013, 05:22:36 AM »
The sony idea interests me, not a fan of pellicle mirrors over the main sensor, I remember the Pansonic L-1 / Digilux 2 / Olympus E-330 had a split system in the viewfinder path, allowing live view on the back and OVF similtaneously.

What if an EVF display was also inserted in the path, with a blind, so that the mirror could stay down for focus performance, but the viewfinder could be switched between optical and electronic?

Although it seemed a convoluted system, and one that would require precise construction (I only mention this because of the issues Canon has had with the 1DX, 1D3 in terms of prism mounting) it did seem to offer all things to all people.

I had a great viewfinder on my now ancient Dimage A2.  Or at least it seemed great at the time, I'm sure things have moved on (so potentially even better)

From a video point of view (and I've made it quote clear previously why it's different) it is useful to have a finder that works along similar DR and colour as the recorded image, for monitoring things like bleaching via zebra overlays, focus peaking, moire, scanning issues where tvs or monitors are in shot, audio meters, exposure settings, whether gain is switched on or not etc.

For stills some of these things carry over...  Do I want to see what is there in reality, or what my camera sees?
I'm not going to be showing folk the real scene, so maybe I'd rather know how my camera is interpreting the scene so I can adjust to get it a close to my creative vision, or reality, as possible.

A split finder path would give phase detect options for those who need it, and live view for folk who don't.

Maybe thats the way things will go in the future, that OVFs become a specialist feature on the top models only.

I would suggest that for a lot of folks, for most folks outside of pro sports or nature guys, EVF's are there. 

Of course whether I'm right or wrong about that specific point, folks will have their own way of working that they prefer, and it's a free market.

I can picture scenarios where a stills guy might work quicker and smarter if they are able to review their images without taking the camera away from their eye.   Ergonomically, the position when using an OVF is better for some kinds of stills, now whether that OVF is live view or EVF is another matter..

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2013, 05:22:36 AM »

fxk

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2013, 08:13:00 PM »

I once (20 or so years ago) overheard a conversation with a symphony conductor who was asked whether CD or LP sounded more like what he heard on the podium.  His reply was that the listener doesn't want to hear what he hears on the podium, that the instruments are not properly balanced at that location; but he is accustomed to this, so he knows how to manage the performers so it will be balanced for the audience.  He said the real question is which sounds more like what the audience is supposed to hear.

I see the same thing for VF's.   I completely concede that EVF's do not show "reality," but that's the point: they can show the information needed for the photographer to capture the raw image that will result in a well-adjusted photo.  For example, an OVF doesn't show blown highlights or clipped shadows; an EVF can.  Or think of ML and its focus peaking feature.  Photographers will learn to make the mental translations needed to use the EVF to their advantage.  I don't claim that EVF's are ready now, but I believe it's a matter of a few short years, just as it was very few years between the arrival of the first digital cameras and the time digital overtook 35mm film.

Careful, there.  That's too close to making sense.

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2013, 12:27:13 PM »
OVFs are inferior in every way but... oh darn I can't really think of one.

I'll help - they have no lag, no limits on dynamic range or color gamut, and use no power.

Quote
EVFs with a proximity sensor use no power when you're not looking through it.

And tons of power when you are.  I sometimes spend hours looking through the viewfinder to get a few hundred shots.

Quote
The horrible EVF lag on my 7 year old P&S never stopped me from taking oodles and oodles of pictures with it, and human reaction time is only around 50ms at best anyway.

Human reaction time is more like 200ms, and entirely irrelevant.

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The EVF tells you exactly where in the scene the sensor is reaching its limits

If that were true - which it isn't - then an EVF would have another use.

Quote
and gives you boatloads of information about how to make your picture better before you take it, it's really not even close.

The EVF overlays are distracting and prevent you from paying attention to what's going on in the scene.  Maybe you shoot a lot of boring, stationary subjects that will wait for you to read what's on the screen and decide what to do, but I don't.  Most of my shots are here and gone in tiny fractions of a second.

Quote
Your whole argument seems to hinge on the inability to see the image produced by the lens with your own eye, as though some ethereal aspect of your artistic skill is cut off by not directly absorbing the photons bouncing off the subject.

I never said anything of the sort, and that is not my argument.

Quote
I'm not wholly against the OVF, and I agree that given the current state of on sensor AF it's still the better choice for fast action, I just think that the one thing it can do that the EVF can't is so easily compensated for that you'd be crazy not to jump on all the benefits of the EVF.

That one thing it can't do is actually many things, and its only advantage is for manual focus situations.

9VIII

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2013, 05:14:49 AM »
OVFs are inferior in every way but... oh darn I can't really think of one.
I'll help - they have no lag, no limits on dynamic range or color gamut, and use no power.

Actually, as was pointed out in another thread, the OVF does have lag, shutter lag, about 60ms on average and 36ms at absolute best. Even current EVF tech has that beat, and potentially by a lot.

If you're just trying to get a good mental image of what the colors in front of you are like all you have to do is open your left eye, or poke your head above the camera, which will actually be even better than an OVF since those do still adjust what you see.


EVFs with a proximity sensor use no power when you're not looking through it.
And tons of power when you are.  I sometimes spend hours looking through the viewfinder to get a few hundred shots.

With my T3 I can stay in live view all afternoon using just two batteries.
Battery consumption does seem to be an issue for the mirrorless market as a whole, but hopefully manufacturers will catch on to the fact that people like big batteries. You can always carry more if it's a big deal to you.


The horrible EVF lag on my 7 year old P&S never stopped me from taking oodles and oodles of pictures with it, and human reaction time is only around 50ms at best anyway.
Human reaction time is more like 200ms, and entirely irrelevant.

If the lag in a system is significantly less than your reaction time it becomes statistically insignificant. People are also very good at compensating for small amounts of lag. You might actually be better off with a good EVF as far as accuracy goes.



The EVF tells you exactly where in the scene the sensor is reaching its limits
If that were true - which it isn't - then an EVF would have another use.

Just because the JPEG preview blows highlights a stop or two early you dismiss the whole concept?


and gives you boatloads of information about how to make your picture better before you take it, it's really not even close.
The EVF overlays are distracting and prevent you from paying attention to what's going on in the scene.  Maybe you shoot a lot of boring, stationary subjects that will wait for you to read what's on the screen and decide what to do, but I don't.  Most of my shots are here and gone in tiny fractions of a second.

Most of the EVF layouts that I can find are virtually identical to a traditional OVF. Very clean, extra info is off frame, just with options for more.


Your whole argument seems to hinge on the inability to see the image produced by the lens with your own eye, as though some ethereal aspect of your artistic skill is cut off by not directly absorbing the photons bouncing off the subject.
I never said anything of the sort, and that is not my argument.

So what is?
You continue to state that the dynamic range and color gamut you get specifically through the OVF is a critical advantage, as though there were no other way to achieve similar results. From your statements so far it seems that you take pictures of something that only appears in your viewfinder for fractions of a second and cannot be seen any other way. I really don't see a practical connection.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 05:18:03 AM by 9VIII »

Don Haines

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2013, 09:22:20 AM »

I once (20 or so years ago) overheard a conversation with a symphony conductor who was asked whether CD or LP sounded more like what he heard on the podium.  His reply was that the listener doesn't want to hear what he hears on the podium, that the instruments are not properly balanced at that location; but he is accustomed to this, so he knows how to manage the performers so it will be balanced for the audience.  He said the real question is which sounds more like what the audience is supposed to hear.

I see the same thing for VF's.   I completely concede that EVF's do not show "reality," but that's the point: they can show the information needed for the photographer to capture the raw image that will result in a well-adjusted photo.  For example, an OVF doesn't show blown highlights or clipped shadows; an EVF can.  Or think of ML and its focus peaking feature.  Photographers will learn to make the mental translations needed to use the EVF to their advantage.  I don't claim that EVF's are ready now, but I believe it's a matter of a few short years, just as it was very few years between the arrival of the first digital cameras and the time digital overtook 35mm film.

Careful, there.  That's too close to making sense.

This is an emotional argument... there is no place in it for common sense :)

I think a lot of people are having a hard time getting past what EVF's used to perform like... and many have no experience with a good one. If the only EVF that I had used was the one on my SX-50, I would be sitting in the "they are crappy and nowhere near ready for the DSLR market" camp, but my experience with the VF2 EVF from Olympus tells a diferent story. It is better than the optical viewfinder was on my Olympus E-510... but I still prefer the optical viewfinder on my Canon. The thing is, I have zero expectation that optical viewfinders will improve over the years while I would be shocked if EVF's didn't.. at some point the overall package will be better.

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Random Orbits

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2013, 09:50:47 AM »
This is an emotional argument... there is no place in it for common sense :)

I think a lot of people are having a hard time getting past what EVF's used to perform like... and many have no experience with a good one. If the only EVF that I had used was the one on my SX-50, I would be sitting in the "they are crappy and nowhere near ready for the DSLR market" camp, but my experience with the VF2 EVF from Olympus tells a diferent story. It is better than the optical viewfinder was on my Olympus E-510... but I still prefer the optical viewfinder on my Canon. The thing is, I have zero expectation that optical viewfinders will improve over the years while I would be shocked if EVF's didn't.. at some point the overall package will be better.

+1.  The EVFs will get there, but I'm hoping that they can do so with minimal power.  I'd hate getting only 100-200 pictures on a battery.

fxk

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2013, 11:14:22 AM »
I seem to be missing something here...
I don't see the engineering to get an OVF in a M camera - isn't that point then moot?

To say either OVF or EVF is junk or perfect is to maintain a ridiculous position.  Each has its weak and strong points

But for an EOS-M, it's either rear screen or (hopefully in the next iteration) an EVF. In that body size, as far as I can envision the optics and engineering, that point is moot.  No OVF.

That said, lets hope Canon puts in as good a finder as is state-of-the-art at the time.  Some options to turn on or off certain information (ala the rear screen) so each photog can choose what helps their photographing abilities, whether it be full live histogram, ISO, flash ready, aperture, shutter speed, local cafe menu, blowout or blocked shadow highlighting to nothing at all but the image.

As for battery life - no one likes 200 shots to a battery. (that used to be a good number, btw) Hope the OLED or other newer technology in the viewfinder can be utilized to keep power consumption reasonable.

Carrying a couple batteries is better than carrying a dozen or so rolls of film.  We've come a long way.

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2013, 11:14:22 AM »

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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 10:57:24 PM »
I would be pre-ordering a M2 if I could.

Would love to see an EVF for three primary reasons
 - power consumption compared to LCD screen. I hope it is lower.
 - use in bright sunlight.
 - additional contact point for steadying the camera


I hope it is the upper left hand corner so that I can avoid nose smudges.

I expect to have the dual pixel sensor, it would be really nice if we could dial in focus speed, instant for stills and perhaps fast/medium/slow for videos.

And/or Magic Lantern hacks and brings out all their cool features.

:)


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Re: EOS M2 Shows up in DPP Literature
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 10:57:24 PM »