September 18, 2014, 11:56:40 AM

Author Topic: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 29570 times)

Woody

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 11:28:08 AM »
You did not answer the question: do you have specific sales numbers for Nikon D800/E and 5D III?
My personal guess is, that Nikon sold more D800/E. 

If you had followed the sales trend for the D800 vs 5D3 on US Amazon charts, you'll notice D800 took the lead initially with 5D3 trailing just slightly behind. Now, the 5D3 is in the top 10 while the D800 is nowhere positioned in the top 30 DSLR. Give it another year. If you see the same pattern emerging in mid-2014, you can be quite certain the 5D3 has completely trounced the D800 in sales.

In case you wanna argue it's all about pricing, I can assure you that's not the important factor at play. Rather it's the poor factory QC that killed the D800 sales. Check out the customer reviews: (i) for 5D3 - out of 327 reviews, 278 were 5-stars and 31 were 4-stars (ii) for D800 - out of 309 reviews, 189 were 5-stars and 26 were 4-stars. Pretty big difference there. Remember the left side focus problems with a number of copies of the D800? That's just one example.

You'll see similar sales trends for 6D vs D600 (remember the Nikon factory debris issue), 5D2 vs D700 (well it's 21 vs 12 MP) etc.

The single biggest advantage that Canon has over Nikon etc is the massive success they achieved during the early DSLR years. Canon had such a commanding lead with the release of their sub-$1000 DRebel 300D (despite all the fanboy attacks on its poor AF capabilities, relatively smooth high ISO performance etc) that the competition has never been able to match, not even today.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 11:28:08 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »
You did not answer the question: do you have specific sales numbers for Nikon D800/E and 5D III?
My personal guess is, that Nikon sold more D800/E. 

As you're well aware, neither company publishes model-specific sales numbers.  Beyond looking at Amazon.com's rankings (which may differ from other regions of the world, but the US is the largest single market), consider the following, from the horses' mouths, so to speak:

In a recent Q&A document, Nikon revised their forecast for dSLR production downward, and stated that sales of entry-level dSLRs are 'skyrocketing'.  If the latter is true, what market segment is not meeting sales expectations?

Meanwhile, Canon recently stated, "Within the Imaging System Business Unit, sales of the EOS 5D Mark III, 6D and 70D advanced amateur model interchangeable lens digital cameras continued to grow.

From that, a reasonable inference is that Nikon's high-end consumer dSLR production is declining, and Canon's high-end consumer dSLR sales are growing. Thus, I infer that your personal guess is wrong.   :P
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Woody

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2013, 11:36:01 AM »
Like I said before. Canon's "Answer" to the Nikon D800 (and future D900, and the Sony A7R) will come as a big bulky elephant sized 1D-body, with a price tag that most people can't touch. :D

Oh Canon..

I don't particularly care if the high pixel sensor is stuffed in a 1D body or 5D body.

I'm more curious about the sensor performance, particularly its low ISO dynamic range. If Canon shows no improvement in this department, it's unlikely we'll see anything better coming out of Canon sensors in the next 4 to 5 years. Now, that will be really depressing.  :'(

sanj

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2013, 11:47:42 AM »
But will they be doing a white version?  ;)

The best comment EVER…. :)

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2013, 11:48:46 AM »
I'm more curious about the sensor performance, particularly its low ISO dynamic range. If Canon shows no improvement in this department, it's unlikely we'll see anything better coming out of Canon sensors in the next 4 to 5 years.

This is a good example of why we should be oh so concerned about sales figures.  Canon has been behind in low ISO dynamic range throughout their sensor lineup for a few years now, and it hasn't hurt their dSLR sales. 

If the roof on your house looks to be in excellent shape and doesn't leak, would you replace it?  Unlikely…if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  From Canon's perspective, their sensors 'ain't broke'.
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JohnDizzo15

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »
I'm more curious about the sensor performance, particularly its low ISO dynamic range. If Canon shows no improvement in this department, it's unlikely we'll see anything better coming out of Canon sensors in the next 4 to 5 years.

This is a good example of why we should be oh so concerned about sales figures.  Canon has been behind in low ISO dynamic range throughout their sensor lineup for a few years now, and it hasn't hurt their dSLR sales. 

If the roof on your house looks to be in excellent shape and doesn't leak, would you replace it?  Unlikely…if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  From Canon's perspective, their sensors 'ain't broke'.

Exactly.

It consistently seems hard for people to wrap their minds around the fact that these companies exist for profit and not for consumer pleasure.

sanj

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »
Like I said before. Canon's "Answer" to the Nikon D800 (and future D900, and the Sony A7R) will come as a big bulky elephant sized 1D-body, with a price tag that most people can't touch.

Ok, then...but what are Nikon and Sony's "Answers" to the 5DIII, which has outsold the D800 and will vastly outsell the a7R?   ::)

Why do people think Canon needs to play Nikon's game?  The D800 was Nikon's attempt to play the game by Canon's rules (we'll see your 8-9 MP increase, and raise you by another 14 MP), and Nikon lost.
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

I agree. We need to look at more than 'numbers sold'. For example there are great movies that have not done super business at the box office. But they have been amazing.
To say Nikon 'lost' is perhaps harsh. As the IQ of the D800 is certainly better than 5d3. A photographer friend who switched from 5d2 to D800 showed me comparisons on his laptop and I cannot any longer defend the IQ of 5d3 vs D800. I do realize 'but but' of autofocus, responsiveness etc but am talking just about IQ.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »

Eldar

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »
If the roof on your house looks to be in excellent shape and doesn't leak, would you replace it?  Unlikely…if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  From Canon's perspective, their sensors 'ain't broke'.
This is actually a concern of mine. I´ve been thinking through what I really really want. And higher resolution is not on top of the the list. DR (at any ISO) is.

I love the fast fps of the 1DX. But it creates a lot of data to be processed. If we doubled/tripled resolution, well then I´d have to go looking for more computing power, which I am more than happy to do, by the way, but less happy if DR performance remained where it is.

As for price, I believe Canon has very good contact with the market. They have absolutely no interest in sending a new product on the market, only to satisfy an exclusive minority. I know I´m saying this after some really horrendous pricing examples, but still.
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sanj

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
I'm more curious about the sensor performance, particularly its low ISO dynamic range. If Canon shows no improvement in this department, it's unlikely we'll see anything better coming out of Canon sensors in the next 4 to 5 years.

This is a good example of why we should be oh so concerned about sales figures.  Canon has been behind in low ISO dynamic range throughout their sensor lineup for a few years now, and it hasn't hurt their dSLR sales. 

If the roof on your house looks to be in excellent shape and doesn't leak, would you replace it?  Unlikely…if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  From Canon's perspective, their sensors 'ain't broke'.

This is an ostrich act of not facing reality by digging its face in sand. Canon sensor is certainly broke after comparing it with the D800 and Rx1. Like it or not.

Orangutan

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2013, 12:10:02 PM »
I agree. We need to look at more than 'numbers sold'. For example there are great movies that have not done super business at the box office. But they have been amazing.
To say Nikon 'lost' is perhaps harsh. As the IQ of the D800 is certainly better than 5d3. A photographer friend who switched from 5d2 to D800 showed me comparisons on his laptop and I cannot any longer defend the IQ of 5d3 vs D800. I do realize 'but but' of autofocus, responsiveness etc but am talking just about IQ.

Complaining about Canon cameras not being "amazing" is like complaining about a Toyota Camry that won't do 180mph, or which doesn't have walnut interiors.  For-profit businesses (like Canon) do not want to make "amazing" products, they want to make amazing profits.

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2013, 12:19:20 PM »
We need to look at more than 'numbers sold'. For example there are great movies that have not done super business at the box office. But they have been amazing.

How many critically-acclaimed box office flops have sequels?  Ok, there was Tron, but you get my point.  Also, there's a world of difference between selling 'Art' and selling tools. 

...am talking just about IQ.

…IQ at low ISO, you mean.

This is an ostrich act of not facing reality by digging its face in sand. Canon sensor is certainly broke after comparing it with the D800 and Rx1. Like it or not.

The moment you buy a bare silicon sensor from Nikon or Sony, please tell us all about it.  Until that day, keep in mind that people buy cameras, not sensors.  You may not care about anything but the sensor, but the sales figures put you in the minority.  Like it or not. 
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GmwDarkroom

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM »
DR (at any ISO) is.
DR Kumite begins anew!

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2013, 12:27:04 PM »
Like I said before. Canon's "Answer" to the Nikon D800 (and future D900, and the Sony A7R) will come as a big bulky elephant sized 1D-body, with a price tag that most people can't touch.

Ok, then...but what are Nikon and Sony's "Answers" to the 5DIII, which has outsold the D800 and will vastly outsell the a7R?   ::)

Why do people think Canon needs to play Nikon's game?  The D800 was Nikon's attempt to play the game by Canon's rules (we'll see your 8-9 MP increase, and raise you by another 14 MP), and Nikon lost.
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

I agree. We need to look at more than 'numbers sold'. For example there are great movies that have not done super business at the box office. But they have been amazing.
To say Nikon 'lost' is perhaps harsh. As the IQ of the D800 is certainly better than 5d3. A photographer friend who switched from 5d2 to D800 showed me comparisons on his laptop and I cannot any longer defend the IQ of 5d3 vs D800. I do realize 'but but' of autofocus, responsiveness etc but am talking just about IQ.

And the companies that mad those great movies went out of business or had to sell to someone else who knew how to run a business.

The point is that in order to stay in business, you have to make a profit.  You can't do that if your product does not sell.  It really has nothing to do with how good the product might be.  One example that us old people remember is the Sony Beta Video Tape Recorder, superior to VHS quality wise, but good marketing pushed it out of the market.

I bought a D800 after they first came out, and it is a nice camera body.  It has buttons all over, and a poor menu system that makes it hard to find a function quickly, but that's a minor thing.  I also purchased 10K of high end lenses.  That's where I made the error, they were good, but the CA on the 24070 f/2.8G was so high that Lightroom could not remove it at the edges.  Then, I read the reviews from testers and found that this was normal.  Even though my Canon 24-105 has a lot of distortion, Lightroom quickly removes it.

The other issue was the amount of computing power it took to process the large files from high ISO shots, usually 50mb compressed and over 100MB when uncompressed.  Running NR on those3 took forever, and, since I take up to 1500 shots at some low light events, it was a non starter to have to spend hundreds of hours editing them.  I've tried again after replacing my computer last fall with the latest, and it cut the time down, but its no fun to sit there for 4 times as long.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2013, 12:27:04 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2013, 12:29:16 PM »
Complaining about Canon cameras not being "amazing" is like complaining about a Toyota Camry that won't do 180mph, or which doesn't have walnut interiors.  For-profit businesses (like Canon) do not want to make "amazing" products, they want to make amazing profits.

Jaguar makes cars that go 180 mph and have walnut interiors.  What Jaguar doesn't make is a profit.  :P
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Eldar

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2013, 12:32:27 PM »
DR (at any ISO) is.
DR Kumite begins anew!

Canon Dojo?
Nikon/Sony Dojo?

FIGHT!
Having spent most of my athletic career in martial art, I like your metaphor ;)

But I don´t see this as bringing "that" fight to the surface any more than stating that I would actually be happier buying a new 5DIV or 1DXI (or what they will call´em) if the massive improvement came in DR. I have previously stated that I want more resolution. I have the new Zeiss 55/1.4 ordered to confirm that. But I had a serious look through some raw-files the other day and I came to the conclusion that I´d rather have a 24MP sensor with significant DR improvement, than a 45MP sensor with the same DR.
PS! If I could buy both, I probably would ;)
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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2013, 12:32:27 PM »