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Author Topic: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 100441 times)

J.R.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2013, 12:45:28 PM »
Jaguar Land Rover made a profit of over £1bn in the first half this year.
He he, I waited for that ;)

PS! I´m in a Lufthansa lounge in Munich with a long stop-over and nothing better to do than write meaningless posts on CR. Please continue ;)

:D
I took a hiatus from CR for a year and a half. The discussions haven't changed much. Excellent information is still being shared while people bitching about Canon cameras are still bitching and haven't moved on to Sony

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2013, 12:45:28 PM »

unfocused

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2013, 01:03:59 PM »
In case you wanna argue it's all about pricing, I can assure you that's not the important factor at play. Rather it's the poor factory QC that killed the D800 sales...

Or, it could be that the 5DIII is simply a better camera.

I know them's fight'n words to many on this forum, but maybe some folks just have to accept that you can't go checking off an arbitrary list of "features" and decide that whomever has the best "sensor score" wins.

The market has spoken and the undeniable fact is that many more buyers are choosing the 5DIII over the D800. Additionally, the market is consistently choosing Canon over any other brand regardless of the model.

Now, here's an inconvenient fact I've learned from a lifetime in my particular field. It's a well-documented fact that while individuals often make poor decisions, in the aggregate large groups of people tend to make very good decisions. If the marketplace is choosing the 5DIII over the D800 it's because it's a better camera. If the marketplace is consistently choosing Canon over other brands it's because they produce better cameras.

I'm not saying that because I'm some sort of a blind fanboy, I'm saying that because that's what the best evidence available shows.

(Now, I see that we've already fallen into the old car comparison saw. And, yes, the best selling cars may not always be the "best" cars. But, they may be the best car at a particular price point, which is what is relevant here.)

KyleSTL

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2013, 01:12:59 PM »
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

The point of citing sales figures is that profit is the primary driver for publicly-traded companies like Canon and Nikon, and what they care about is developing products that will sell well and provide a return on investment, not products that will please a minority segment of the market that happens to be very vocal on internet forums. 

You may not find it interesting, but that's the reality of business...and the reality that determines what products are available to purchase (or in some cases, products that people have no intention of purchasing, but choose to complain about anyway).   

I'd also suggest that elaborating on a rational viewpoint is more interesting than a weak, one-line 'refutation'.
Exactly.  Same reasoning that Nikon's currently weak profitability has caused them to announce consolidation of camera lines to offer fewer products (in point and shoot lines) and focus on entry-level equipment (interchangable formats) to stengthen their financial situation:

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/16/nikon-qa-low-inventory-high-profit-margins-cost-cutting-fewer-models.aspx/

Think the group of vocal Nikon enthusiasts asking for their D300s replacement will ever get it?
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AvTvM

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2013, 01:14:04 PM »
If the marketplace is choosing the 5DIII over the D800 it's because it's a better camera. If the marketplace is consistently choosing Canon over other brands it's because they produce better cameras.

the old motto "eat S____, billions of flies cannot be wrong!"  ;D


Or more tech-oriented ... "buy IBM computers", "buy Compaq notebooks", "buy Nokia cellphones", "buy Kodak film". Billions of units sold. To many millions or even billions of customers. Overwhelming market lead for some time  ... UNTIL ... somebody else had better products and managed to spead the news. ;-)

Canon = has been sliding from 2009 onwards. Ever since Nikon managed to the D3/D300 double whammy. Then they lost it too. The slide has been accelerating over the last 2 years. Soon ... by bye .. down the toilet. Yesterdays market share will not save 'em. :-)

Eldar

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2013, 01:16:52 PM »
In all this praise of Canon success and Nikon failure, we should be aware though that our interests are best served if we have healthy competition. So, Sony, Nikon, Olympus and all the rest of you, please make life tough for Canon, so they have to stretch to please us!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 01:20:19 PM by Eldar »

Orangutan

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2013, 01:17:16 PM »
Complaining about Canon cameras not being "amazing" is like complaining about a Toyota Camry that won't do 180mph, or which doesn't have walnut interiors.  For-profit businesses (like Canon) do not want to make "amazing" products, they want to make amazing profits.

Jaguar makes cars that go 180 mph and have walnut interiors.  What Jaguar doesn't make is a profit.  :P

Jaguar Land Rover made a profit of over £1bn in the first half this year.

Which they sell at Jaguar/Land Rover prices, not at Camry prices.  Sure, any of the manufacturers could make killer DSLR's, but not at prices most of us could afford.

You choose your compromises based on your needs.


 

Orangutan

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2013, 01:25:50 PM »
If the marketplace is choosing the 5DIII over the D800 it's because it's a better camera. If the marketplace is consistently choosing Canon over other brands it's because they produce better cameras.
Canon = has been sliding from 2009 onwards.
How have they been sliding?  Apparently not in market share or profitability relative to other manufacturers.  How then?

Quote
Ever since Nikon managed to the D3/D300 double whammy. Then they lost it too.

Maybe they blew most of their R&D budget on those and didn't have the capital to keep up the pace.  I'm sure the recession didn't help.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2013, 01:25:50 PM »

unfocused

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2013, 01:41:27 PM »
If the marketplace is choosing the 5DIII over the D800 it's because it's a better camera. If the marketplace is consistently choosing Canon over other brands it's because they produce better cameras.
Canon = has been sliding from 2009 onwards.
How have they been sliding?  Apparently not in market share or profitability relative to other manufacturers.  How then?

Quote
Ever since Nikon managed to the D3/D300 double whammy. Then they lost it too.

Maybe they blew most of their R&D budget on those and didn't have the capital to keep up the pace.  I'm sure the recession didn't help.

Good points Orangutan. You are one smart ape.

 Looks like a struck I nerve here.

As a matter of fact, to the flies it is the best meal.

As for AvTvM's  other examples, they prove the point as well. When IBM made the best computers, they dominated the market. When they quit making the best computers, they no longer dominated the market.

At least we all agree that sales (more accurately overall profits and return on investment) are really the best assessment. The only point of disagreement seems to be an interpretation that somehow Canon is on a downward spiral.

I doubt if any evidence to the contrary, no matter how overwhelming it might be, will convince some folks otherwise.

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2013, 01:49:58 PM »
Canon = has been sliding from 2009 onwards. Ever since Nikon managed to the D3/D300 double whammy. Then they lost it too. The slide has been accelerating over the last 2 years.

Your statements smell like that stuff those billions of flies eat.

You asked for hard numbers earlier.  Now, about this there are hard numerical data.  Those data show that you are totally wrong.

This was 2010:


This was 2011:


In 2013, Canon announced they have held the #1 market share worldwide in terms of volume within the interchangeable-lens digital camera market for the entire 10-year period from 2003 to 2012.

According to quarterly reports to date this year, Canon sales of dSLRs are dropping.  But Nikon's sales of dSLRs are dropping much faster

Show me the slide…   ::) ::) ::)
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GuyF

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2013, 01:56:26 PM »


Fair enough…thanks!  I guess I was thinking of the Ford-owned years…  I wonder what would happen if Sony bought Nikon?   :o

If Sony bought Nikon you'd be able to play Grand Theft Auto (or whatever the kids are into these days) on your camera's screen whilst waiting for the light to improve.

msm

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
Sales figures and profit margins means nothing for us consumers in itself, unless the company is about to go bankrupt or something.

Do you really want a camera from the manufacturer with highest market share? Do you want a camera from the company with highest profit margins? Or do you want the camera with best performance for your needs?

Why is Canon market leader? Because they make the best cameras? Or maybe because they have the best marketing? Best support? Maybe salesmen in photo shops have the biggest margins from selling Canon cameras? Maybe more people already have Canon lenses and thus limit themselves to Canon cameras?

To me these market share figures alone means nothing. I do however expect that Canon doesn't offer a 5D class camera with high resolution and DR opens up a nice market for the A7R and metabones adapters until Canon can come up with a response.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 02:13:22 PM by msm »

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2013, 02:20:56 PM »
I do however expect that Canon doesn't offer a 5D class camera with high resolution and DR opens up a nice market for the A7R and metabones adapters until Canon can come up with a response.

I think you left out a letter - the letter 'H'.   ;)

"I do however expect that Canon doesn't offer a 5D class camera with high resolution and DR opens up a niche market for the A7R and metabones adapters until Canon can come up with a response."

Or do you want the camera with best performance for your needs?

I want a camera with the best performance for my needs.  The thing is, my needs aren't centered around high MP count or low ISO DR.  Of course, there are people for whom more MP and/or more low ISO DR are critical.  It's just that those people are in the minority.  Understanding that fact, and the impact that fact has on Canon's R&D proirities, might help people who's needs diverge from Canon's priorities to make a decision about whether to stick with Canon or choose another brand of camera.  Then again, they might just choose to complain about Canon not meeting their needs. 
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Orangutan

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2013, 02:41:02 PM »
Sales figures and profit margins means nothing for us consumers in itself, unless the company is about to go bankrupt or something.
Profits affect long-term R&D budgets, which affects the capacity to maintain a rich line of products.  See the post about 2014 being the year of the lens.  If that proves true, that R&D is funded out of profits.

Quote
Or do you want the camera with best performance for your needs?
Of course I want this; however, I realize that my needs are not exactly the same as everyone else's, and that the manufacturer will try to create a camera that will satisfy the most people.  Of course I'd love Canon to make me a 5D3 with a D800 sensor at a 70D price, but they won't do it.


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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2013, 02:41:02 PM »

ewg963

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2013, 02:44:54 PM »
I'll wait and see. Fingers crossed  8)
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hgraf

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2013, 02:45:00 PM »
This is a good example of why we should be oh so concerned about sales figures.  Canon has been behind in low ISO dynamic range throughout their sensor lineup for a few years now, and it hasn't hurt their dSLR sales. 

If the roof on your house looks to be in excellent shape and doesn't leak, would you replace it?  Unlikely…if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  From Canon's perspective, their sensors 'ain't broke'.

I'm from Canada, and even though hockey isn't a favourite of mine I'll use a fact from that world: The Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since 1967. They rarely get into the playoffs. They generally play decent to poorly. (I'm generalizing here, but on average, they are not that great a team).

Some would say, with this data, that the team needs a major overhaul. That alot of money should be spent on improving performance with the aim of bringing the cup back to Toronto.

But then you consider attendance: Leaf games are pretty much ALWAYS sold out. The moment tickets are available they are scooped up and the only tickets left are standing room. Add to this: Leaf tickets are among the most expensive tickets in the whole league.

So, what does this tell us? That despite piss poor performance, they are making a crap load of money. If tickets to their games are really expensive, and yet every game is sold out within minutes of going on sale, where does that leave things?

From their end, what is the motivation to improve? The team is making tons of money. Why should they spend more money to improve if it won't make them more money?

Canon is in a similar position IMHO. Their products mostly rule the market. Their products aren't bad, but they aren't leading edge, yet, they still make a ton of money.

Yes, if they went crazy with the spending and made every facet of their products better then anyone else they'd likely sell more. But if you add up the cost of doing that vs. the additional revenue do you think they'd be ahead?

Canon has a ton of really smart people, and that includes the money side. I GUARANTEE you that the money people have told the big wigs that it's not worth it. Why improve a product beyond the point where it'll make you more money?

Canon as a company isn't stupid. They've for the moment nailed the DSLR game perfectly. They introduce marginal improvements which are minimal in cost to them, just to keep going enough to fuel sales. They have the freedom to focus on areas that traditional DSLR users don't care too much about (live view focusing).

Personally I'm very happy with my Canon gear. While on paper the competition is "better", my personal experience is that it isn't better "enough" to warrant a switch. That's what Canon relies on. That's what Canon is successful with.

The market can change quickly, who's to say if this tactic will continue working much longer. I guess we'll see.

TTYL

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2013, 02:45:00 PM »