April 26, 2018, 08:19:46 AM

Poll

What is a WB setting for the golden hours?

Kelvin temperature or custom?
20 (83.3%)
Shadow WB?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?  (Read 38147 times)

privatebydesign

  • Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS
  • ***********
  • Posts: 6830
  • Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:04:40 AM »
I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation.

I'm using a-wb in camera because if you set a manual value, you're throwing away potentially useful information, I often find it interesting to see why the camera chose what it did, the camera is more objective than my eye. If I want a common base, I can simply add a fixed wb to a LR import preset or copy/past the wb setting in LR.

I'm sorry I don't understand. My assumption was we were all talking about a RAW workflow, this renders the "As Set" WB largely irrelevant for any individual shot and certainly any in camera WB setting doesn't throw away anything. My reason for setting a base, or manual WB, is for consistency across shots from a similar time and lighting scenario. A-WB will be different by small amounts during a sequence of shots, I have found it easier in post to not have to deal with these small variations, especially when you move to PS and save when the WB ºK and tint sliders are replaced with a +/- scale.

Obviously if you are shooting straight to jpeg then the WB setting does matter, but in these situations the camera will try to adjust the actual light to white, this means in our sunset scenario A-WB will tend to set a WB too low on the ºK scale and the sky won't be as orange as it appears to the eye because of the blue the camera adds to try to overcome the orange.

If you want your camera to reflect what your brain knows as realistic light colours, ie, candle light is orange and midday mountain light is blue, then setting a manual WB at 5,500-6,500ºK will get you there most of the time, if you want white shirts to be toneless then you need to add/subtract blue/orange (and a bit of tint) to do that. Incidentally, tint is the one weakness of the manual ºK in camera setting, auto and custom WB also do a tint calculation that is outside the functionality of direct ºK in camera input.

For a studio scenario custom WB per session/lighting setup is king, especially if you want whites and greys rendered toneless. For everyday shooting and atmospheric scenarios where I want the light to reflect its actual colour I find manual ºK to be "better", assuming a RAW workflow. If you are shooting jpegs then manual ºK to taste as the end image is entirely subjective.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:04:40 AM »

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 6316
  • Canon Pride.
    • Der Tierfotograf
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:18:37 AM »
I'm sorry I don't understand. My assumption was we were all talking about a RAW workflow, this renders the "As Set" WB largely irrelevant for any individual shot and certainly any in camera WB setting doesn't throw away anything.

Sorry, I should have been more verbose on this: If you shoot fixed wb you don't record the camera's potential a-wb decision, so that information is "lost". Of course with raw, no picture data is lost.

My reason for setting a base, or manual WB, is for consistency across shots from a similar time and lighting scenario. A-WB will be different by small amounts during a sequence of shots

Correct, this isn't really relevant and can potentially confuse postprocessing. What I find interesting about the camera's a-wb decision is when some outdoor "everyday" shots have a completely different wb because I can then look why that is - usually the light changed or I screwed up something, so I can then process this shot differently while with shots that have about the same camera a-wb you can usually simply bulk copy/paste development settings.

I have found it easier in post to not have to deal with these small variations, especially when you move to PS and save when the WB ºK and tint sliders are replaced with a +/- scale.

That's probably the difference between our workflows - I'm almost exclusively using LR, and it's very easy to copy/paste wb.

privatebydesign

  • Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS
  • ***********
  • Posts: 6830
  • Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 10:31:25 AM »
Sorry, I should have been more verbose on this: If you shoot fixed wb you don't record the camera's potential a-wb decision, so that information is "lost". Of course with raw, no picture data is lost.


Ah I understand, and agree, but I find the cameras A-WB to be as easily fooled as auto exposure, it certainly doesn't know what "look" I am trying to achieve so I rarely find it of any practical use.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 6316
  • Canon Pride.
    • Der Tierfotograf
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 10:40:46 AM »
Ah I understand, and agree, but I find the cameras A-WB to be as easily fooled as auto exposure

But you're using older Canon 1d models, aren't you? From what I've heard awb has decisively improved recently like 5d2->6d/5d3, and on my 60d/6d it's consistent enough to give me hints in postprocessing when the lighting has changed w/o me noticing by looking with my bare eyes. And if awb screwed up, well, then I simply bulk copy/paste a fixed wb (which I usually do anyway).

tron

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3404
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »
Too few choices in the poll. Anyway I leave it to Auto White Balance. I know it is not perfect but since I shoot raw I correct later.
In fact I find the Auto results rather pleasing for exterior environments. For interior environments I have to lower the temperature to make it look natural.

privatebydesign

  • Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS
  • ***********
  • Posts: 6830
  • Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 11:00:36 AM »
Ah I understand, and agree, but I find the cameras A-WB to be as easily fooled as auto exposure

But you're using older Canon 1d models, aren't you? From what I've heard awb has decisively improved recently like 5d2->6d/5d3, and on my 60d/6d it's consistent enough to give me hints in postprocessing when the lighting has changed w/o me noticing by looking with my bare eyes. And if awb screwed up, well, then I simply bulk copy/paste a fixed wb (which I usually do anyway).

Agreed, as always there are many ways to get to the same result, or at least the result each of us actually wants. It just helps if you understand what the camera is doing and why it is doing it combined with our own workflows and anticipated results.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

bholliman

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1471
    • [color=blue]Flick[/color][color=red]r[/color]
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2013, 08:09:13 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
5DsR, EF Lenses: 35mm f/2IS, Tamron 85mm f/1.8 VC, 300mm f/2.8L II IS, 16-35mm f/4L IS, 24-70mm f/2.8LII, 70-200mm f/2.8LII
M5, EF-M lenses: 22mm f/2, 18-150mm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68928679@N05

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2013, 08:09:13 AM »

tron

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3404
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2013, 10:07:43 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
I can't see how that helps if the light for exterior shooting changes. 5500K will be wrong and you will still have to make changes. Unless you take a lot of pictures at the same external place at exactly the same conditions of course where the changes if any will be applied to more than one photos at the same time.

WPJ

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 239
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2013, 10:31:40 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
I can't see how that helps if the light for exterior shooting changes. 5500K will be wrong and you will still have to make changes. Unless you take a lot of pictures at the same external place at exactly the same conditions of course where the changes if any will be applied to more than one photos at the same time.

I think that's the point, you already know the exact k with out having to look it up, make the work flow slightly faster

tron

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3404
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 07:37:12 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
I can't see how that helps if the light for exterior shooting changes. 5500K will be wrong and you will still have to make changes. Unless you take a lot of pictures at the same external place at exactly the same conditions of course where the changes if any will be applied to more than one photos at the same time.

I think that's the point, you already know the exact k with out having to look it up, make the work flow slightly faster
Even with WB set to auto, you can always correct the WB in ACR for one picture, select it first, then select more in Adobe ACR and synchronize WB. It is simple and fast.

Zv

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1766
    • Zeeography (flickr)
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2013, 11:16:22 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
I can't see how that helps if the light for exterior shooting changes. 5500K will be wrong and you will still have to make changes. Unless you take a lot of pictures at the same external place at exactly the same conditions of course where the changes if any will be applied to more than one photos at the same time.

I think that's the point, you already know the exact k with out having to look it up, make the work flow slightly faster
Even with WB set to auto, you can always correct the WB in ACR for one picture, select it first, then select more in Adobe ACR and synchronize WB. It is simple and fast.

Yeah but if you use flash worst thing in the world is Auto WB. Knowing what temp you are shooting at has it's advantages in camera. I think it helps understand color temp better too.

Also in post you want to see and control the amount of color shift as the sun sinks. For example in shot no 1. lets say you correct WB to 5000k and then sync all. Great but now shot 100 is the wrong color because by that point the sun went down and things got cooler and you wanted to preserve that look. Auto is too inconsistent and you'd have to muck about fixing a lot more shots then resyncing. With a fixed value you know how much or how less you need to move it by.

It's hard to explain but it does help your workflow by shooting at a constant temp. Auto can be cool one shot and then warm the next. Then you gotta figure out "was it really cool or was it warm at that point?" With Daylight you know exactly how it was!
Move along nothing to see here!

WPJ

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 239
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2013, 11:22:57 AM »
My general approach is to set WB at a predetermined value, I use 5,500ºK, this takes one inconsistency out of the equation. If you use Auto WB you have to adjust for the cameras idea as well as the actual light, in post processing I find it easier to adjust everything by the same amount than try to even out the inconsistencies Auto WB introduces, then just tweak in groups as the light changed.


+1. For several years I used AWB but found I was spending a lot of time in LR micro adjusting the WB of each shot from a set to compensate for the white balance the camera selected for individual pictures.  Keeping the WB set for Daylight or 5500K alleviates those PP issues.
I can't see how that helps if the light for exterior shooting changes. 5500K will be wrong and you will still have to make changes. Unless you take a lot of pictures at the same external place at exactly the same conditions of course where the changes if any will be applied to more than one photos at the same time.

I think that's the point, you already know the exact k with out having to look it up, make the work flow slightly faster
Even with WB set to auto, you can always correct the WB in ACR for one picture, select it first, then select more in Adobe ACR and synchronize WB. It is simple and fast.

Yeah but if you use flash worst thing in the world is Auto WB. Knowing what temp you are shooting at has it's advantages in camera. I think it helps understand color temp better too.

Also in post you want to see and control the amount of color shift as the sun sinks. For example in shot no 1. lets say you correct WB to 5000k and then sync all. Great but now shot 100 is the wrong color because by that point the sun went down and things got cooler and you wanted to preserve that look. Auto is too inconsistent and you'd have to muck about fixing a lot more shots then resyncing. With a fixed value you know how much or how less you need to move it by.

It's hard to explain but it does help your workflow by shooting at a constant temp. Auto can be cool one shot and then warm the next. Then you gotta figure out "was it really cool or was it warm at that point?" With Daylight you know exactly how it was!

Zv, yes that's what I was trying to explain not using auto you have at least a know starting point.

Zv

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1766
    • Zeeography (flickr)
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2013, 11:44:19 AM »
Shot to shot consistency! That's the words I was trying to say but totally spaced out on!
Move along nothing to see here!

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2013, 11:44:19 AM »

WPJ

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 239
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2013, 12:48:52 PM »
Shot to shot consistency! That's the words I was trying to say but totally spaced out on!
same here.....

tron

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3404
Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2013, 03:54:26 PM »
Also in post you want to see and control the amount of color shift as the sun sinks. For example in shot no 1. lets say you correct WB to 5000k and then sync all. Great but now shot 100 is the wrong color because by that point the sun went down and things got cooler and you wanted to preserve that look. Auto is too inconsistent and you'd have to muck about fixing a lot more shots then resyncing. With a fixed value you know how much or how less you need to move it by.
Sorry for removing most of the comments to reply I just wanted to avoid another tunnel thread (there was one where we ended up making fun  :) ).
I do not disagree in concept too much I think. I just believe it is the same with ACR +1 step.
You just mention an example of a 5000K temperature applied to all via sync. Isn't the same if you have it all at 5000K at the time of shooting?
In both cases you would do either:
1. minor tweeks to some and/or
2. preserve the look of some.

Either starting from 5500K (or 5000) at the time of shooting or from a set temperature from ACR which by the way may also be the same (say 5500K or 5000)...

So I believe it is just a step difference either way  (always talking about raw files)

Now, I have observed that my 5D2 and 5D3 are way off (too warm) at tungsten lighting (as was my 40D). In that case a preset value in K would give better results from the start (which seems to be around 2700K at least for many of my latest interior shooting cases). Still it is not big deal to apply at post and I have the advantage of not forgetting the camera to that value.

It is just the freedom that raw files give us. I believe both ways are acceptable and it actually comes down to personal preference.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 03:56:22 PM by tron »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What WB to use for the golden hours (sunrise and sunset)?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2013, 03:54:26 PM »