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Author Topic: Black-rapid failure!  (Read 11545 times)

tolusina

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 05:30:31 PM »

Your post lacks a basic understanding on two points.


1: The BR loop that mounts to the fastener has a swivel, so, from an engineering point of view, entirely negating your point.


2: The OP did not have the hypothetical issue you talk about, the screw unscrewing, he said "I have no idea how it got out of the locked loop"
BR swivel huh? And that swivel is designed that it can never ever bind from something, say, like the camera swinging to one side or the other causing a side force on the swivel portion?
That POS swivel cannot dependably negate anything, let alone my arguments. I think finding that swivel was the point when I lost all interest in BR products, it just looks cheesy and lame to my experienced mechanic's vision. No way I'm depending on that thing to secure my camera, you may, of course, proceed as you wish.


Correct, the OP hasn't stated which point failed. Seems to me likely that either the screw came loose, or the vaunted swivel failed or both.
Whatever the cause, he was using a BR strap, his camera fell, something failed.
If it turns out that it was indeed operator error, that points back to BR engineering for not thoroughly "Idiot Proofing" (no offence intended) their designs.
Idiot Proofing should be part of all best engineering practices. An engineer must look at their work, think up ways that an end user might possibly err and design around those possibilities. The best consumer products are always "Curse Proof" and "Idiot Proof".
---
...Consider that among camera manufacturing company staff, there are also those who specialize in sales and marketing - and their decisions usually trump the engineers and designers.  No engineering idea for a carrying strap attachment, no matter how structurally sound, would be allowed to see the light of day if it resulted in the camera – and its logo – hanging upside down behind the owner, rather than upright and proudly facing forward for the world full of potential buyers to see.


Give those marketeers credit for considering a plethora of conditions prior to a product reaching our hands, give them credit for knowing and being relatively expert about a whole lot of things the consumer public never thinks about but gets them to buy cameras anyway. .....

This one is really too much hot air Neuro, really.
If marketing thought inverted carry solutions would help sell cameras, we would have seem them long ago. Except, engineering likely put the kibosh on such ideas. Sure I can't say for sure, I'm not a camera engineer, I can only see what marketing has released.
No complex reasoning needed at all to imagine double brand logos, one inverted, if inverted carry was sound.


Gee, what do your brilliant sales guys think when an end user mounts the O.E. strap backwards?
Logos on my 6D straps all face the same way, what was Canon Sales thinking? One Nikon strap has opposing Logos, the other Nikon and my Pentax have a single, centered Logo, if the camera is behind, strap logo is to the front though it could end up upside down.


Neuro, these Sales/Marketing comments of yours are just a lot of blah, blah, blah. I truly wish you would have saved the keystrokes you applied in yet another mighty effort of yours to denigrate another CR member, saved me the keystrokes of replying. Sometimes I think you just like seeing your sarcastic excellence in text.
Lately, it seems only a small percentage of your posts demonstrate the depth of your most enviable knowledge and experience, a much larger percentage appear arrogantly negative for the sole purpose of being negative.
 
Yes, I did post...
......Neuro, I'm expecting a sarcastic critique of this post from you, please, stifle it.......
And I changed the font color to white so that it would not be readily apparent on the board but only show if/when one began a reply.
Your sarcastic critique came through anyway, I do not thank you for your demonstrated lack of respect.
 
I want to state that it appears you just can't help yourself when it comes to posting your negativity. Better if I ask you to ask yourself if maybe you can find a way to help yourself stifle your negativity?
Your technical posts are truly marvelous and amazing, real internet gems. Must you counter those gems so negatively? Do you get off on the strangely congratulatory posts to the effect of "Yay! Neuro PWNs another noob"?
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...As I've stated before, with the AS-type clamp attached to the BR lug, I don't worry and don't need to check anything......
Um, er, as you've stated before.........
....Personally, I attach a FastenR-3 to a Kirk 1" clamp (QRC-1) with Loctite for each of my BR straps. .....
That you have determined the need for the use of Loctite on your BR straps is a clear and unequivocal indication that you have recognized a basic design shortcoming and applied Loctite as a partial at best kludge work around of that short coming.
Neither you, I or anyone else needs an engineering degree to come to this conclusion.
.......After a long diatribe about engineering, implying that you know more than the engineers who designed the tripod socket-based carrying straps,......
Not at all my implication.
My implication is that there are indeed mechanical engineers applying their skills and knowledge to the Camera Manufacturers' and consumers' benefit.
I do question whether the yayhoos that design BR type straps are engineers at all, their products indicate to me that they are little more than tinkerers.
You yourself have found need to tweak these lame designs.
....If a randomly applied rotational force is applied to screw threads, the probability of that force being applied in the direction that tightens the screw is equal to the probability of it being applied in the direction that loosens the thread. You might want to look up the definition of "random."
Did that look up.
---
"ran·dom
(rndm)
adj.
1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance.
2. Mathematics & Statistics Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance."
---
Definition 3 does not apply here.
It, and apparently Neuro, would imply that straps, cables, ropes, hair and such could never twist or tangle as each twisting or tangling force would be countered by an equal but opposite force.
See the comments above regarding red/black random chance at roulette.
 
I'm going with definition 1 here, random being unpredictable.
Photogs whose BR straps have never loosened are the ones that experienced the clockwise forces as dominant, the anti clockwise crowd either caught the effects in progress or dropped expensive gear, that fits with definition 3. You get your 50/50 distribution, just not in the same place.
.....I felt just as if the camera had come loose from its strap, I was also randomly screwed.
Let me see if I can improve on this thought.
BR straps and the like belong over in the Useless Accessories thread, better, a new thread titled, "Worse Than Useless Accessories, Beware, Catastrophic Failures Have been Reported ".
 
Really, it's not as though this thread is the first ever mention of one of this type carry system's failure.
While they are likely out there, I don't recall ever seeing a report of an O.E. style strap failing, and even if, an O.E. style strap is only likely to fail due to extreme wear and continued use under an extremely worn condition qualifies as Operator Error, or operator error during assembly.

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 05:30:31 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2013, 05:59:17 PM »
My attachment points for my camera strap is a pair of sewn on nylon loops. I either have a neck strap hooked into the loops or when hiking, a pair of short tethers to the shoulder straps of my pack.

For me, attaching something to the tripod mount is not going to work as it will interfere with tripod use or using it on my hiking pole/monopod.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 12:04:57 AM by Don Haines »
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takesome1

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 07:30:54 PM »

.....I felt just as if the camera had come loose from its strap, I was also randomly screwed.
Let me see if I can improve on this thought.
BR straps and the like belong over in the Useless Accessories thread, better, a new thread titled, "Worse Than Useless Accessories, Beware, Catastrophic Failures Have been Reported ".
 
Really, it's not as though this thread is the first ever mention of one of this type carry system's failure.
While they are likely out there, I don't recall ever seeing a report of an O.E. style strap failing, and even if, an O.E. style strap is only likely to fail due to extreme wear and continued use under an extremely worn condition qualifies as Operator Error, or operator error during assembly.

I wouldn't go that far, I use mine and it works great. However I got the memo and knew that failures were possible.
To put it on a fifth grade level, I put a wimberley C-12 on the BR Strap and put the maximum amount of torque I could on the screw. Since I bought it a year or so ago it has never come loose and has never failed.

Also, the chance of a screw coming out is greater in this circumstance than the chance the screw will be tightened. This is because of friction and gravity. It takes more force to screw than unscrew.
Roulette is the opposite the chance you will be screwed will increase the more you play.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 08:59:34 PM »
Correct, the OP hasn't stated which point failed. Seems to me likely that either the screw came loose, or the vaunted swivel failed or both..

You don't like BR straps, fine - don't use them.  I've been hanging $2K-4K of gear from them for several years, and $20K of gear from one for over a year, and will keep on doing so. 

I fail to see how either of your suggestions has merit, given that the OP stated that his camera was tucked under his coat, meaning it likely had no rotational freedom. 

As for the rest of your post, I see no point in responding, as your opinion is irrelevant to me.

Also, the chance of a screw coming out is greater in this circumstance than the chance the screw will be tightened. This is because of friction and gravity. It takes more force to screw than unscrew.

Excellent point.  Thus, the Loctite.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 09:08:28 PM »
Correct, the OP hasn't stated which point failed. Seems to me likely that either the screw came loose, or the vaunted swivel failed or both..

But the OP, adhocphotographer, did say what happened, and I quoted it, you just chose to ignore it a second time,
" I have no idea how it got out of the locked loop." It, the fastener, didn't come undone and the swivel didn't fail. Your "seeming likely" is groundless and ignores the OP's actual statement.

Do what you like, when I use the BR I am very happy with it, I use it for my travel photography and some event shooting and it has carried a 1Ds MkIII and 24-70 around the world, several times. I trust it.
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tolusina

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 11:27:48 PM »

....I fail to see how either of your suggestions has merit, given that the OP stated that his camera was tucked under his coat, meaning it likely had no rotational freedom....
Naw, a snowboarder wouldn't be twisting around at all, I've seen the vids, as straight and stationary as an ironing board, um, not. Boarding is real real active sport, I have no trouble imagining the strap hanging from his neck, the camera near his waist, lots of motion between the two as arms, neck, torso, hips are all in continuous and vigorous  motion.
You're right again, you fail, you fail to see or imagine.


......As for the rest of your post, I see no point in responding, as your opinion is irrelevant to me......
I know, huh?
That's why you posted........
....... you toss out that little nugget and ask me not to reply sarcastically?  C'mon...that's like my 5 year old daughter dangling her long braids in front of my 8 month old son and expecting him not to grab them. ......
It appears you've been found wanting.
And all this blah blah on my part wouldn't have happened without your admittedly sarcastic post.


Time for you to do a dictionary look up, your word to find is "Sarcasm".
It's never pleasant to be on the receiving end of sarcasm, do you delight in dishing it out?
 
---
....But the OP, adhocphotographer, did say what happened, and I quoted it, you just chose to ignore it a second time,
" I have no idea how it got out of the locked loop." It, the fastener, didn't come undone and the swivel didn't fail. Your "seeming likely" is groundless and ignores the OP's actual statement....
You are 100% correct, I did overlook that locked loop statement by the OP.
So, that pretty much leaves the screw/loop affair at fault, doesn't it? The 'D' ring must have opened, then sprung back into place. Not a good product endorsement. Goes straight back to BR engineering that looks as though it was found in a Cracker Jack™ box.
Whatever the cause, OP apparently used the product correctly, still, his camera hit the ground. BR failed him when he trustingly depended on it.


---
edit........
https://www.google.com/#q=black%20rapid%20strap%20failure&safe=off
and
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=blackrapid+strap+warning&revid=172558662&sa=X&ei=LQ29UpztI6ba2AW96ICgCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CL4BENUCKAA&biw=978&bih=590
 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 12:21:34 AM by tolusina »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2013, 12:24:17 AM »
....I fail to see how either of your suggestions has merit, given that the OP stated that his camera was tucked under his coat, meaning it likely had no rotational freedom....
Naw, a snowboarder wouldn't be twisting around at all, I've seen the vids, as straight and stationary as an ironing board, um, not. Boarding is real real active sport, I have no trouble imagining the strap hanging from his neck, the camera near his waist, lots of motion between the two as arms, neck, torso, hips are all in continuous and vigorous  motion.

Yep, those active, twisting snowboarders always wear super oversized coats, don't they, with huge gaps in between their bodies and those coats.  Lots of room for cameras to spin around, and they love snow accumulating in there, too.

You definitely don't have trouble imagining things.  Understanding them is more difficult.

You are 100% correct, I did overlook that locked loop statement by the OP.

Reading carefully is more difficult, too, apparently.

And all this blah blah on my part wouldn't have happened without your admittedly sarcastic post.

Well, you're right about one thing in this thread - that's a refreshing discovery.  I'll keep on dishing out the sarcasm, you keep on dishing out a whole lot of blah blah blah. 

On second thought, you can dish out more blah blah blah, even toss in a few feeble attempts at sarcasm of your own if you like...but I'm done.  Thanks for playing!
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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2013, 12:24:17 AM »

Northstar

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 07:47:26 AM »
I like my BR, it carries my 1dx and my 70-200 all the time...never had a problem...and I'm pretty active when shooting sports.  I would recommend the product.

However, if I had bought the strap without doing any further reading/research on how it can fail, but simply just started using it,(like some people do) then I guess there would be a decent chance of a "drop" having happened at some point in time.  I was aware of the potential issues so I began taking precautions from day one.

We all know it can fail as a "right out of the box product" (pretty unlikely, but possible) if you're not taking some precautions/measures to decrease the likelihood of failure.

So with that said, there is some merit to the point that it could be designed better.   IMO

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neuroanatomist

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 08:06:58 AM »
So with that said, there is some merit to the point that it could be designed better.   IMO

Agreed.  That's true of many products, actually...
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iron-t

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 08:50:11 AM »
While this doesn't respond directly to OP, Custom SLR makes a fastener similar to the BR one except the strap attachments can rotate freely.  They call it the C-Loop and that is what I use.  It also eliminates the need for the swivel and clip attachment that BR uses.  I have had no issues with mine.

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2013, 09:20:55 AM »
I love my BR strap but am also cautious with it. Not long after adopting it, the swivel hook came off the attaching screw.  Fortunately I had my hand on the body so the camera didn't go anywhere.  Somehow the safety lock that keeps the hook latch closed had loosened, allowing the latch to open.

Unless I'm actually shooting or otherwise occupied, I always keep my right hand down near and in contact with the camera when it's hanging at my side.  So now I've developed a habit of periodically giving both the the latch lock and the screw attach a little tightening twist with my thumb and forefinger.  I do this frequently whenever the camera is hanging at my side.

It sounds like I'm constantly worrying about the camera coming loose from the strap but this action has now become completely automatic and unconscious.  I don't even think about it and so the opposite is true - I have complete confidence that my camera and lens are secure.

DaveMiko

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2013, 11:29:05 AM »
Hi all,

I was snowboarding in the alps the other day, the weather was fantastic so i decided to take my 5Diii with me on my BR sport under my coat. I am a good boarder who rarely falls (unless trying something stupid), so was not concerned with having my camera tucked under my coat. I had the camera locked into the system, but at one point, when opening my coat, the camera somehow got detached and jumped out, bouncing on my board and rolling down the slope for a while before i could catch up! The camera and lens are all fine, thankfully, but my trust in BR is now gone! I have no idea how it got out of the locked loop.

Has anyone else had a problem like this? If not, be careful, it might happen to you, and you might not be as lucky as me (imagine concrete and steps instead of nice soft snow)!

Anyway, happy christmas to you all! And i hope you are having a great day!  :)

I own very expensive gear (as many others, obviously) and I never, ever am careless in handling them. For instance, I always carry my 1DX and 5DIII inside camera bags (I use Lowepro Fastpacks). I avoid BlackRapid straps, since I don't like the idea of an equipment like that hanging around from a thread. It just doesn't provide me with a sense of security. It would have been unthinkable for me to do as you did, in this case.
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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2013, 11:55:18 AM »
Luma Labs Cinch Strap

http://luma-labs.com/pages/cinch

Connects at 2 points on the camera so "twirling" is literally impossible.
 
The bottom attachment is an Arca-Swiss plate, so the whole tripod-to-handheld thing is a non-issue. 

The versatility of choosing short and snug for carrying, or long for shooting, is great. 

Price is nice at $60 too.
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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2013, 11:55:18 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2013, 12:27:26 PM »
Luma Labs Cinch Strap

The bottom attachment is an Arca-Swiss plate, so the whole tripod-to-handheld thing is a non-issue. 

Except for the dangling strap when it's mounted on a tripod, which is a source of vibration, especially if there's wind.  Also, with collared lenses while they have an alternate solution (podmount) it's not optimal, in that switching it around from one lens to another, or switching from collared to non-collared lens, seems like it would be a hassle.  But if you only use non-collared lenses and don't mind a dangling strap, it looks like a good solution.
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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2013, 12:27:52 PM »
I'm not a Black Rapid fan. I tried one for a year or so, had several near disasters and found myself constantly carrying the camera in my hand and checking the nut to make sure it was tight.

I also found the strap itself not all that functional. Instead of the camera sliding up and down as advertised the entire strap tended to slide around on my body whenever I put the camera to my eye. So I finally dumped it and went back to a conventional strap.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks, but I didn't find it to be the ultimate strap some people believe it to be.

Thus, I think adhocphotographer's warnings and tolusina's comments have quite a bit of merit.

Consider that among camera manufacturing company staff, there are also those who specialize in sales and marketing - and their decisions usually trump the engineers and designers.  No engineering idea for a carrying strap attachment, no matter how structurally sound, would be allowed to see the light of day if it resulted in the camera – and its logo – hanging upside down behind the owner, rather than upright and proudly facing forward for the world full of potential buyers to see.

I find the anti-marketing diatribes on this site wearying and incredibly ill-informed. Two points in this particular case:

A tripod socket is designed to be a tripod socket. It is engineered, built and stress-tested for that purpose. If you want to use it for another purpose, you do so at your own risk. Perhaps it can function perfectly well for that other purpose, but the point is that in order to know that, the camera manufacturer would have to spend additional dollars designing, machining and testing the tripod socket for those other purposes.

The reason camera manufacturers don't make straps that rely on the tripod socket is that it wasn't designed for that purpose and the engineers have already installed strap holders that were designed for that purpose.

But, the more significant point is the utter nonsense that gets continuously spewed on this site about marketing in general.

Good marketing (and believe me, Canon engages in good marketing) is always customer-based. It begins with extensive research into what the customers want, how they use the product and what their needs are. It is that research that is fed up the line to designers, engineers, etc., who are tasked with developing products that meet the needs of the consumer.

It is far more common for an engineering or design division to veto a particular feature because of technical limitations, than it is for a marketing division to reject an engineering solution. Ultimately, it comes down to the financial division, which has to look at the cost-benefit analysis of any feature to determine if it is cost-effective and they are just as likely to veto a marketing department's recommendations as they are an engineering department. In fact, more times than not, it will be the limits or constraints identified by the engineering and design departments that will kill off a feature, rather than marketing, which is always (in a well-run organization) the most vocal advocate for the consumer in the company.

This, of course, is not because of any particular largesse by the marketing department, but simply because it makes their jobs easier if the company can produce products that consumers actually want to buy.

Bottom line is, in a well-run company the marketing department is always the consumer's strongest advocate. If that has not been your experience in your particular company, then blame the company's management because they aren't doing their job if they aren't using ground-up marketing and design.
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Re: Black-rapid failure!
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2013, 12:27:52 PM »