October 25, 2014, 12:02:08 PM

Author Topic: Magic Lantern adds 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.  (Read 31564 times)

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2014, 11:07:31 AM »
But at least with 5DMk2 I can remove it on the fly and then install it again...

Hmmm, I wouldn't do this since enabling the in-camera bootflag and removing it is the situation where things can really go wrong (like a power loss while flashing the fw) - unlike most routers, the camera has no "u-boot" mode so when you mis-flash it it's bricked for good.

Btw there seem to be vastly different feelings on how fast the camera should boot, I have to admit I find 1-2 sec. nothing - if I switch it on when taking it out of the bag or wherever it is and then put grab it & put it to my eye the boot process is done. If you want zero startup time simple let it go to sleep instead of turning it off. I really don't want to mindlessly promote ML, but in this case I fail to see the severe issue.

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2014, 11:07:31 AM »

tron

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2014, 11:11:06 AM »
But at least with 5DMk2 I can remove it on the fly and then install it again...

Hmmm, I wouldn't do this since enabling the in-camera bootflag and removing it is the situation where things can really go wrong (like a power loss while flashing the fw) - unlike most routers, the camera has no "u-boot" mode so when you mis-flash it it's bricked for good.

Btw there seem to be vastly different feelings on how fast the camera should boot, I have to admit I find 1-2 sec. nothing - if I switch it on when taking it out of the bag or wherever it is and then put grab it & put it to my eye the boot process is done. If you want zero startup time simple let it go to sleep instead of turning it off. I really don't want to mindlessly promote ML, but in this case I fail to see the severe issue.
It seems you didn't read the rest of my post. I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2014, 11:54:33 AM »
I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.

Sorry, I read this as wake up from power off, please forgive me misunderstanding this.

Btw another part of good news from ML development: They will be able to reverse whatever trick Canon is using to cheat with fast lenses (since these capture less light on digital than film) - apparently the method currently used has unwanted side effects, so most likely there is no need for it when shooting raw: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9867.msg96850#msg96850

Quote
Alright, so the side effects of Canon's ISO/aperture trick are:
- small overflow at f1.4 (0.03 stops), larger at f1.2 (I guess 0.25 stops from DxO chart, link below). This results in highlight loss in the CR2.
- histogram gaps indicating digital scaling (not quite good for denoising algorithms)
- possible highlight loss in some raw editors (ufraw for sure; I'll fix it in ufraw-mod). To check your favorite editor, take two test shots, f1.6 normal and with lens unscrewed by holding the DOF button, and compare the highlights.

Please note that this is ongoing development, but as the information is available in the ML forum I think some people over here will also have an interest in what's coming up next and get more interested in the ML project.

ejenner

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2014, 11:57:41 PM »
 OK, I read the whole thread, interesting.  I thought it was going to be several pages of 'whole ISO's' argument, but it's worth reading through.

Looks like ML team are going to figure out exactly what Canon is doing with their sensors.


« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 12:42:53 AM by ejenner »

Sella174

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 01:46:36 AM »
OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.
Happily ignoring the laws of physics and the rules of photography to create better pictures.

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 08:33:28 AM »
OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.

Not with faster lenses it isn't :-p as Canon adds digital brightness to compensate for the light loss. The most "raw" you get is with full stop iso, and ML now adds about 0.5ev more dynamic range on top of that... but in the current camera generations, every "raw" image is cooked to some extent.

Sella174

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 11:15:15 AM »
... but in the current camera generations, every "raw" image is cooked to some extent.

Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?
Happily ignoring the laws of physics and the rules of photography to create better pictures.

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 11:15:15 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 12:15:51 PM »
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

Niki

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 01:15:16 PM »
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3????   if so HOW???

R1-7D

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 01:26:18 PM »
Looks like I might be reinstalling magic lantern on my 5D2. I will leave it off my 5D3 for the time being. Should be quite interesting though!
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ejenner

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 10:39:43 PM »
OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.

In never was in the sense that some gain (at least analog, and likely some digital) and ADC conversion is applied to the voltage coming off the sensor.  Plus you then have to fit the voltage reading into 14 bit digital.  So there is always going to be some 'manipulation' of the signal.  Raw really just means the data has not been converted to an image, lots can still go on before that (e.g. even dark frame subtraction results in a 'raw' image).


leGreve

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 11:38:42 PM »
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3????   if so HOW???

You could but its a bit troublesome and a bit heavy to work with to be honest. And it wont be true 4K.

What you do is shoot 2.5k raw then bring it into adobe camera raw and set the output size larger than it is... Ie 4k. It should still look amazing but alas take quite a while to convert the dngs into 4k tiffs.
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tron

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 04:39:44 AM »
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3????   if so HOW???
Copied from ML F.A.Q page:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/faq.html
Troll Questions
...
I am new here I dont know anything about coding [...] I want to be able to shoot Raw and 4K
Why stop at 4k? Why not 8K?  Download the 16K firmware and give it a try. Here's a sample video: Video recorded with T2i 4k Firmware

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 04:39:44 AM »

3kramd5

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2014, 10:52:23 AM »
Quote from: Marsu42

Btw another part of good news from ML development: They will be able to reverse whatever trick Canon is using to cheat with fast lenses (since these capture less light on digital than film)

Wait, what? Can you elaborate? Are you saying that since sensor sensitivites aren't 1:1 with film speeds, canon secrets more gain to compensate? And they only do it for fast lenses? And they do it on a per aperture basis? I'd never heard of this. It seems quite weird.

And it's weirder when one considers that sensor sensitivites aren't even 1:1 with eachother. As someone who only rarely uses film, I care little whether my digital camera at ISO130 exposes the same as Plus-X to within .03 stops, for example.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:03:37 AM by 3kramd5 »
5D3, 5D2, 40D; Various lenses

cayenne

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 11:21:40 AM »
you can remove ML pretty easily… simply power off, remove SD card, remove battery, and you are back to the old Canon again.

Not with this build, not with 5D mk III, as far as I know:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9214.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5810.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6035.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7125.0

etc.

Yes with this build also…. ML is on the SD card… not on the camera. What is done to the camera that might be irreversible is the boot flag and the boot time. But who the heck cares really… if you need a 0.2 sec. wake up time, don't mess with ML, easy as that.

If you want awesome functionallity beyond what Canon was willing to give, including filming raw video, then get ML.

Follow the ML install instructions and put ML files on the SD card.

If you some day get tired of ML again and want the original camera, just download Canon firmware 2.3 instead, and that will remove everything except the boot flag.

Stop fearing this….. ML has really improved the 5D!

Here's  a couple of tests I did last year with raw:

https://vimeo.com/69840853

https://vimeo.com/70150221

Which 5D do you have? 1,2 or 3?

Again, I'm dying to try this ML on my 5D3, but I'm not willing to do so at this time, due to an irreversible change (the boot flag).

And, from what I've read on all the ML forums, there are lag times in boot and waking from sleep significantly more than .2 seconds.

If you only have one 5D3 and it is your main workhorse, these are serious issues to be concerned with. You cannot get rid of the lag by removing ML at this time, from everything I've read on the forums.

C
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:24:36 AM by cayenne »

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 11:21:40 AM »