July 24, 2014, 12:49:46 AM

Author Topic: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 4829 times)

Sabaki

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 05:27:46 AM »
Has to be pretty special in order for me to sell my EF 100mm f/2.8 L IS for it
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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 05:27:46 AM »

Rudeofus

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 05:42:01 AM »
I do like the idea of no focus breathing (hope I am using the term correctly)

There are two ways to focus a lens:

  • Move it away from the film/sensor plane
  • Make its focal length shorter

All internally focusing lenses do this by shortening their focal length. If you go all the way to 1:1 macro, your focal length would be cut in half. This means your beautiful 200mm macro lens with internal focusing would turn into an 100mm macro lens at 1:1 magnification. Pretty pointless, isn't it?

danski0224

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 07:02:15 AM »
It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

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Rudeofus

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 10:04:53 AM »
120mm TS-E macro  ;D

That would be a very cool lens that I could not afford.  It would probably cost $2500-3000.

It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

First: Mamiya makes an excellent 140mm macro that covers the image area of a 6x7cm system. Using its rather simple optical formula for making a 140mm T&S lens for 35mm cameras should be quite doable.

Second: as you approach higher magnifications, the image circle of a lens automatically becomes larger. And it's the higher magnifications where I really miss T&S ...

The reason why I don't think that Canon would make a T&S macro is because it is unwieldy for portrait and for hand held shooting and would therefore attract only a tiny niche market.

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 12:13:47 PM »
First: Mamiya makes an excellent 140mm macro that covers the image area of a 6x7cm system. Using its rather simple optical formula for making a 140mm T&S lens for 35mm cameras should be quite doable.

Wouldn't that formula be protected by a patent? It would eat out of the profits, if Mamiya agrees to license it at all.

The reason why I don't think that Canon would make a T&S macro is because it is unwieldy for portrait and for hand held shooting and would therefore attract only a tiny niche market.

I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.

Rudeofus

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2014, 01:12:27 PM »
Wouldn't that formula be protected by a patent? It would eat out of the profits, if Mamiya agrees to license it at all.
There are many ways to skin a cat. I know a number of camera makers which have 18-55mm lenses in their lineup without stepping on each other's patent.
I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.
Canon has a 90mm T&S lens in their lineup, and it's well known that this lens is not exactly the most popular lens.

StudentOfLight

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2014, 03:22:10 PM »
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

For me though a potential 90mm TS-E update is more intriguing.
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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2014, 03:22:10 PM »

Rudeofus

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 05:00:00 PM »
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...

StudentOfLight

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2014, 10:17:07 AM »
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...

... so if Canon upped the filter size on a new macro lens then they'd have a reason to sell a new macro Flash.
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StudentOfLight

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2014, 10:46:32 AM »
I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.

There are some wedding photographers that use TS creatively for people shots, although some people say that this is now a bit cliche. For me I think the only opinion that really matters is that of the client. If they want it and like it then great.

Obviously, as you've said TS DoF manipulation is extremely useful for product photography. It's a huge time saver compared to focus-stacking, especially when you have lots of samples to set up and shoot.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2014, 10:51:27 AM »
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.
Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...

Yes, but have you looked at the front of those macro lenses?  The front elements are all substantially smaller than the filter ring, which is why you can step the 72mm filter down to a 58mm ring and not get vignetting.  Using an MT-24EX on a 70-200/2.8 (77mm filter thread and a front element that goes almost to the filter thread) via a step-down ring results in only a very slight increase in optical vignetting with the lens at f/2.8, and no noticeable effect with the lens stopped down. 

Canon could simply bring out a Macrolite 77C adapter and call it a day.
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Chaitanya

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2014, 11:41:04 AM »
Mostly in field working with live insects I have never cross 2x mag ratio. So if Canon really releases a new zoom macro capable of going all the way upto 2x then for most macro shooters that would be the only lens to carry in field. Also I don't think it will be a cheap lens and will cost around 2500$ atleast.

mb66energy

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2014, 11:46:57 AM »

It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

I don't think so because the lens is usually tilted around an axis which lies in the image plane. Actually the projection of the image plane at 30° tilt is smaller than the image plane at zero tilt.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 11:50:30 AM by mb66energy »
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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2014, 11:46:57 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2014, 12:04:46 PM »

All internally focusing lenses do this by shortening their focal length. If you go all the way to 1:1 macro, your focal length would be cut in half. This means your beautiful 200mm macro lens with internal focusing would turn into an 100mm macro lens at 1:1 magnification. Pretty pointless, isn't it?

The distance between image plane and object is 4 times the focal length at 1:1 or otherwise: the focus distance at 1:1 will give you the focal length if you divide it by four:

EF-S 60    MFD 200mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   50mm
EF 100     MFD 300mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   75mm
EF 180     MFD 480mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   120mm

Ok, it is not a true "single lens" but there is a good chance that you do not loose 50 % of the initial
focal length.
Modern lenses bend the light by crazy ways so there is a chance that you simulate lens positions to get
1:1 without loosing any focal length. Think about EF-S10-22 at 10mm which leaves 35mm space between back lens and image plane!
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Rudeofus

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2014, 06:35:17 PM »
Ok, it is not a true "single lens" but there is a good chance that you do not loose 50 % of the initial
focal length.

All the macro lenses you just listed do not use internal focusing, so your point is moot. I did not argue against macro lenses in general, only against macro lenses with internal focusing.

Modern lenses bend the light by crazy ways so there is a chance that you simulate lens positions to get
1:1 without loosing any focal length. Think about EF-S10-22 at 10mm which leaves 35mm space between back lens and image plane!

These lenses do all kinds of crazy stuff, but when it comes to focusing they are still as they always were: internally focusing lenses which forfeit focal length at MFD for elegance, and lenses that maintain their focal length but become longer as you focus closely.

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Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2014, 06:35:17 PM »