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Author Topic: 5DIII - too grainy or not?  (Read 35181 times)

Marsu42

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 08:18:01 AM »
I just didn't understand why an author of the linked article in dpreview.com said that it is a "must" to shoot at the base ISO. As "jrista" said in his post, the best option is to push ISO as high to reach ETTR with required (desired) shutter speed and f-stop.

Look at Canon's dynamic range curve: on newer full frame, it doesn't really matter if you shoot iso 100 or 400 unless you're doing extreme shadow recovery (like I did on your shot): http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonEOS_5D_MkIII.html

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 08:18:01 AM »

jrista

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2014, 01:58:34 PM »
Thanks to all again, expecially to "jrista" for his comprehensive and understandable explanation.

@klickflip: I really don't know these tricks, I was just shooting. :P Ask me something about my hobby, if you want. (its in nickname) ;)
And I like your corrections.

I just didn't understand why an author of the linked article in dpreview.com said that it is a "must" to shoot at the base ISO. As "jrista" said in his post, the best option is to push ISO as high to reach ETTR with required (desired) shutter speed and f-stop.

I'm not sure why he would say that, unless he really doesn't actually understand the purpose of ETTR. The only time when I think always using ISO 100 with ETTR would be valid is for landscapes. Static scenes, where shutter speed can vary at will without any adverse affect, is the only time when you would want to lock yourself into ISO 100. For everything else, you really need to CHOOSE your shutter speed (and aperture, for the DOF you need), then you "push" exposure with ISO. If your shooting skateboarders, then your an action shooter, no question. The most critical factor for you is shutter speed...choose that, then push ISO. Trust me on this. :) I've been doing it for several years now with birds and wildlife.

I want to ask you one more thing (jrista or anybody else). In what way do you make an ETTR when you have one very very bright part of image. Like sun, small window in a dark room, or anywhere there is big dynamic range. Ok, HDR is one option but let say you want to make a single shoot. Will you sacrifice that bright part of an image with purpose to put the rest of an image into the right side of histogram. Or will you shoot like an author of the previously linked article where he put that window and sun on the right edge, but the major part of image was under exposed?

The real question is, what highlights are important? When the sun is in the picture, if there are any shadows at all, you have 20+ stops of dynamic range. Plan and simple. No DSLR camera on earth can capture 20 stops in a single frame. If your scene is static, you can do HDR. If your shooting action, you have two options: Add light to the shadows (i.e. flash or other artificial lighting), or choose what highlights and shadows to preserve, and "discard" the rest. If the sun is actually IN the frame, you can't capture it in any detail. It, and most likely a certain amount of sky around it, will be blown. That's just the fact of the matter.

But...that isn't a problem, either. You don't need, and don't necessarily even WANT, the sun and the deepest shadows to all be visible and detailed. Letting the sun and surrounding sky blow out is actually more desirable...maybe even artistic. Deepening the deepest shadows, while lifting the rest, and recovering highlights, will increase the contrast of the scene. @Kickflip actually demonstrated this very well with his first sample image...he attenuated the contrast curve, which produced a very artistic image.

It isn't possible to preserve unlimited dynamic range, and you shouldn't bother trying. Preserve what you can...and preserve what is important, and don't worry about the rest. That's what photographers do. It's what they have been doing for decades upon decades. In your work, at least the kind of work with the skateboarder, the only thing that REALLY matters in the scene is the skateboarder and his board. The rest of the scene is background and periphery content...it can be darkened or lightened or whatever you want to do, but the key subject in the scene is the boarder, his board, and maybe part whatever ramp or rail he kicked his trick off of.

Expose to the right...just shift your exposure as far to the right as YOU PERSONALLY believe is acceptable given the scene, it's lighting, and how much of the highlights YOU want to preserve. And go with that. The fundamental concept is pretty simple. There are no real hard and fast rules...that's probably the only rule you should REALLY learn about your photography: YOU are the photographer, it's YOUR art, own it and make it yours! ETTR is just a technical tool that allows you to create higher quality exposures that preserve more detail with less noise...when possible. But there are no rules...it's just a tool, like your camera, like your flash.

climber

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2014, 03:55:12 PM »
I have to go out and practice. Thanks. ;)

jrista

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2014, 04:44:47 PM »
I have to go out and practice. Thanks. ;)

The quick rule of thumb that I follow with ETTR is, always make sure that some part of the histogram is at least part way into the rightmost histogram section or box (in the background, the histogram is divided up into vertical sections). I always try to make sure that my histograms reach 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way into that rightmost box. I could probably push it farther, however when it comes to birds and wildlife which are always on the move, highlights change too much, and I don't want to clip any. It may be for you that at least 2/3rds to 3/4s of the way into the rightmost box is better. Just give it some experimentation, and you'll get a feel for what works for you, and how much of the highlights you want to preserve.

climber

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2014, 05:13:10 PM »
I have to go out and practice. Thanks. ;)

The quick rule of thumb that I follow with ETTR is, always make sure that some part of the histogram is at least part way into the rightmost histogram section or box (in the background, the histogram is divided up into vertical sections). I always try to make sure that my histograms reach 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way into that rightmost box. I could probably push it farther, however when it comes to birds and wildlife which are always on the move, highlights change too much, and I don't want to clip any. It may be for you that at least 2/3rds to 3/4s of the way into the rightmost box is better. Just give it some experimentation, and you'll get a feel for what works for you, and how much of the highlights you want to preserve.

Yes, I know there are vertical sections. Thanks for this advice.

Do you also recommend to shoot with AEB mode with 3-5 shoots and some gap between them? And then to choose the best exposure. This would be appropriate for shooting a landscape from tripod. I know it is not appropriate for sports or any other moving object. I suppose you "over expose" image based on the experience and do only one or maybe two shoots.

jrista

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2014, 05:17:30 PM »
I have to go out and practice. Thanks. ;)

The quick rule of thumb that I follow with ETTR is, always make sure that some part of the histogram is at least part way into the rightmost histogram section or box (in the background, the histogram is divided up into vertical sections). I always try to make sure that my histograms reach 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way into that rightmost box. I could probably push it farther, however when it comes to birds and wildlife which are always on the move, highlights change too much, and I don't want to clip any. It may be for you that at least 2/3rds to 3/4s of the way into the rightmost box is better. Just give it some experimentation, and you'll get a feel for what works for you, and how much of the highlights you want to preserve.

Yes, I know there are vertical sections. Thanks for this advice.

Do you also recommend to shoot with AEB mode with 3-5 shoots and some gap between them? And then to choose the best exposure. This would be appropriate for shooting a landscape from tripod. I know it is not appropriate for sports or any other moving object. I suppose you "over expose" image based on the experience and do only one or maybe two shoots.

No AEB for action. Single shots only. What matters more for you is the number of frames you capture in a second. The more frames per second, the better the chance of you nailing that one perfect moment. You might benefit from some remote flash on stands to give you more control over the lighting of your subject and the backgrounds...but I really don't think that fits with photographing skateboarding. High frame rate and high ISO are basically your realm...outside of having exceptional outdoor light, you will probably find that your shooting at ISO 800 and higher most of the time.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 05:19:22 PM by jrista »

Marsu42

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »
No AEB for action. Single shots only.

I don't know, I find aeb for action rather useful - on the 60d, I set it to 3x with minimal ev spacing of 1/3ev. It never really hurts, but it makes nice mini-bursts with one shutter press and if the shots are very similar you can select the best exposure so the shutter cycles weren't for nothing :-)

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »

jrista

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2014, 06:28:33 PM »
No AEB for action. Single shots only.

I don't know, I find aeb for action rather useful - on the 60d, I set it to 3x with minimal ev spacing of 1/3ev. It never really hurts, but it makes nice mini-bursts with one shutter press and if the shots are very similar you can select the best exposure so the shutter cycles weren't for nothing :-)

I guess you could do that. I think a continuous frame rate for more than three frames while holding down the shutter is more important, as capturing that exact moment is more critical than getting a proper exposure. With digital photography, to a certain degree at the very least, exposure is fluid. You can shift it around in post at will up to four stops on pretty much any camera.

If you really need the ability to lift shadows more than four stops, then there are other cameras that can do the job better at the moment. I think picking up one of those cameras is probably a better option than bracketing and losing the ability to do continuous AI Servo shooting.

Marsu42

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2014, 06:35:52 PM »
I guess you could do that. I think a continuous frame rate for more than three frames while holding down the shutter is more important

In the pj-like work I did, I knew about what moment I wanted to shoot but wanted to exclude frames with the people blinking and such - a 3x burst @60d 6fps is very good for that. Usually I don't even servo af for that as it's really not very reliable on single-point 60d and 6d.

as capturing that exact moment is more critical than getting a proper exposure. With digital photography, to a certain degree at the very least, exposure is fluid. You can shift it around in post at will up to four stops on pretty much any camera.

Of course, but this bracketing isn't really for bracketing but a cheap solution for mini bursts ... the 1/3ev spacing is just the way to do it and have the benefit of a small ev choice if the shots are identical.

jrista

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2014, 06:53:07 PM »
I guess you could do that. I think a continuous frame rate for more than three frames while holding down the shutter is more important

In the pj-like work I did, I knew about what moment I wanted to shoot but wanted to exclude frames with the people blinking and such - a 3x burst @60d 6fps is very good for that. Usually I don't even servo af for that as it's really not very reliable on single-point 60d and 6d.

as capturing that exact moment is more critical than getting a proper exposure. With digital photography, to a certain degree at the very least, exposure is fluid. You can shift it around in post at will up to four stops on pretty much any camera.

Of course, but this bracketing isn't really for bracketing but a cheap solution for mini bursts ... the 1/3ev spacing is just the way to do it and have the benefit of a small ev choice if the shots are identical.

Ah, gocha. I honestly haven't used anything other than the 7D for a couple years solid now. I had a 450D which was more like the 60D/6D in terms of AF points and frame rate...but that was such a long time ago. I got the 7D to avoid the issues I had with it. :P

The next camera I plan to get is a 5D III, which is probably even farther from the 60D/6D than the 7D in terms of AF capabilities. But, I do understand if you need short bursts. (Although...does the 6D not give you the option of a "Continuous Low" frame rate? My 7D has both Continuous High and Continuous Low. I get 8fps high, and 3-4fps low. I think the 5D III and 1D X both allow you to configure the low frame rate (or maybe just the 1D X...since it's high is 12fps, you can set low to be anything in a range from I think 3 to 8-10.))

Marsu42

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »
Although...does the 6D not give you the option of a "Continuous Low" frame rate

Nope, they didn't dare to do that, but in addition to the normal 4.5fps it has "silent continuous" @3fps, the same as 5d3... but of course this includes the silent shutter lag.

My mini-burst method is really not made to look for good moments later on, but to avoid closed eyes and whatnot in the same moment... and just pressing the shutter button is simpler when in a stress situation than remembering to lift the finger again after 3 frames :-p

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2014, 08:39:40 PM »
Well since underexposed shots are kind of my style.. I tried to take my own approach at your shot, and I hope you don't mind. This is probably the direction I would have taken it if I was in your shoes.


climber

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 01:10:08 PM »
Hey. Today I went out to try shooting in "ETTR mode". I over exposed the image below by 1 2/3 EV with center weighted metering. On the camera screen review the whole sky over the castle was blinking. When I open it in LR, first thing that I have noticed was that there is quite a big difference in the sense of over exposing. I mean there was a lot less of blinking in LR compared to camera screen review. Then I made some corrections and the result is below. Actually, the sky is quite well recovered, if I thought that every part of it was blinking on the camera screen.

Do you suggest any other kind of metering mode? Maybe evaluative metering?

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 01:10:08 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2014, 01:19:29 PM »
Do you suggest any other kind of metering mode? Maybe evaluative metering?

*Every* metering mode just meters for the jpeg range and ignores how much you can recover in raw files, so it's about experience on how much +ec you can get away with. As written above, the only proper method to do this is to use Magic Lantern, it has a *raw* histogram that shows you *exactly* if anything is clipped (and can automatically adjust the exposure to perfect ettr).

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2014, 02:13:45 PM »
Hey. Today I went out to try shooting in "ETTR mode". I over exposed the image below by 1 2/3 EV with center weighted metering. On the camera screen review the whole sky over the castle was blinking. When I open it in LR, first thing that I have noticed was that there is quite a big difference in the sense of over exposing. I mean there was a lot less of blinking in LR compared to camera screen review. Then I made some corrections and the result is below. Actually, the sky is quite well recovered, if I thought that every part of it was blinking on the camera screen.

Do you suggest any other kind of metering mode? Maybe evaluative metering?

This shot and your treatment of it shows you have come a long way since the skater shot. If I may be so bold as to judge, no offence intended.  ;D

A skilled and talented photographer once told me to pick an exposure mode and to stick to it. Meaning you would get to know the algorithms and how much to compensate to achieve the effect you are after. However I don't follow his advice. I find for me sometimes evaluative is best and other times center weighted is best. What I'm trying to say is listen to the advice you get on here and make your own mind up as what works for you. You will get conflicting advice, some from people who are convinced they know best, but in the end you just make your own choice.

As you said, get out and practice, then do what works for you.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

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Re: 5DIII - too grainy or not?
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2014, 02:13:45 PM »