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Author Topic: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii  (Read 10562 times)

moreorless

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2011, 09:09:28 AM »
The full frame camera market is in an interesting state of flux at the moment.  As I see it, Canon have five options for the 5D MkII replacement:

1) Keep the major specifications the same as the 5D MkII and use the 18MP unit from the 1D X.
I’m not sure that you could sell such a camera on the basis of better high ISO performance alone; thus Canon would have to reduce the price.   This could work if:
a)   they can realise production synergies with the 1D X and other models to reduce the cost of making the camera (thus maintaining their profit margin)
Or
b)   they can realise a price point where they can sell enough extra units to compensate for the lower profit margin. 

2) Improve the major specifications over the 5D MkII and use the 18MP unit from the 1D X.  Differentiate from the 1D X based upon frame rate/buffer size, body size and viewfinder (+ probably a few other ‘pro’ orientated features such as Ethernet). 
i.e. the D700 strategy.  There are two dangers here:
i) Cannibalising 1D X sales in the same way that the D700 did to sales of the D3. 
ii) Alienating the section of the market of 5D MkII buyers who value resolution over build quality, AF and shooting speed. 

3) Take the 5D MkII and put a newly developed (for example) 36MP sensor in it. 
Problem: Nikon takes a D700 and puts a  36MP sensor in it; Sony builds a 36MP A9X based on their A77’s features: the 5D MkIII looks like the poor relation. 

4) Create a (for example) 36MP small body camera with improved AF, build quality and reasonable (4-6fps) shooting speed but keep the price near that of the 5D MkII. 
Problems:
a)   You’ve basically just built a 1D Xs and are only charging 5d MkII money for it!
b)   â€œI’ve just bought a 1D X and now I feel ripped off”


5) Create a 36-40MP body and improve some of the specifications over the 5D MkII, compromising others. 
Problems:
a)   It may be OK against the Sony, but might still look weak against the Nikon (so the price must be lower than the latter?). 
b)   People would always be speculating that the 1D Xs is on the way. 

If this looks like an awkward situation for Canon, bear in mind that Nikon are in the same boat.  In some ways it may be worse for them, as there would be uproar if they dropped any of the major specifications of the D700 for the D800. 

Sony’s strategy will only work if they can persuade full frame users of the benefits of the SLT concept and there’s not much evidence so far that they’ve persuaded the APS-C market yet.  Otherwise, they risk simply being the third choice brand all over again.

The real problem I see Canon having is that compaired to the 5D mk2 the market seems to have extended both upwards and downwards, with no 1Ds you have high end users after more megapixels and with the lower prices of the mk2 being so popular you now have a much larger cheaper market.

Balancing both of those with a single body seems like its going to be very difficult which makes me think there might be something to the rumours of a spilt in the 5D line. If they can produce a cost effective $2000ish FF body then the specs of the D800 become much less relivant at double the price. Then a high megapixel body could be targeted much more closely at its users likely needs, MP, Viewfinder and Buiid over FPS, high ISO and AF.

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2011, 09:09:28 AM »

legarth

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2011, 10:27:43 AM »
As someone who is a "prosumer" willing to spend $3000 on body, I don't see myself being happy with at 5diii with less than 21mp. I have been very happy with my 5dii, I don't need more than around 5fps. A better AF system would be great but not a must for me. Good iso performance is important. I shoot photos mainly but have done a good deal of video as well. So I really feel the 5dii was a almost perfect match for me.

I really hope they don't alter the balance of what is in the current generation. My 5dii is almost 3 years old now and I have saved for a replacement... so I just hope for a 5dmk ii with a bit higher res, bettter iso, updated AF and raw video :)

psycho5

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 02:21:40 AM »
For me, the sensor is more important than product name. If the sensor from the 1Dx is repackaged into another body at less than half the cost of the 1dx itself ($1,999), im getting it.... you all have to admit, the new 18mp FF sensor is mighty sexy, especially when you consider file size.

speaking of file size, I wonder how many people who "need" 36mp are ready to shell out even more cash to upgrade computers and storage solutions just to process the large files without any slowdowns. Again (so I dont get lit up about this), an 18mp FF will at least provide better noise performance than a 36mp FF and the files will be half as much.

So Canon please release:

18mp FF from 1Dx
same iso
7D's AF
100% VF
6 frames per sec
"cheap" body like the 60D, but w/ 7d's weather sealing
swively screen

scottsdaleriots

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2011, 03:48:57 AM »
i hope the 5dIII has the same ISO as the 1Dx or something similar to it. Ddual digi V would be a no brainer.

Fleetie

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 12:33:31 PM »
For me, the sensor is more important than product name. If the sensor from the 1Dx is repackaged into another body at less than half the cost of the 1dx itself ($1,999), im getting it.... you all have to admit, the new 18mp FF sensor is mighty sexy, especially when you consider file size.

speaking of file size, I wonder how many people who "need" 36mp are ready to shell out even more cash to upgrade computers and storage solutions just to process the large files without any slowdowns. Again (so I dont get lit up about this), an 18mp FF will at least provide better noise performance than a 36mp FF and the files will be half as much.

So Canon please release:

18mp FF from 1Dx
same iso
7D's AF
100% VF
6 frames per sec
"cheap" body like the 60D, but w/ 7d's weather sealing
swively screen

Yes I would LOVE the 1Dx sensor in a 5D/7D style smaller body! I'd be all over it! I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around £7.1k. OOF!
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2011, 01:21:04 PM »
I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around £7.1k. OOF!

OK, why not get the 70-200 f4 IS - the low light capabilities of the 1DX is sooo good that the f4 will be more than adequate, and half the weight of the f2.8 MkII version.

Done a wedding reception last night with my 5D2 and was suddenly aware of how much easier that 51k ISO would have made my job. Maybe not as much as it would cost you, but i am not relishing the idea of having to splash out £4k+ for a 1DX - but you really are getting the extra money's worth.

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2011, 01:24:26 PM »
i hope the new 1dx is telling us alot about the up coming 5dii ... i hope the ff sensor stays the same, no need for a larger mp sensor.  whats the point?

The point is: studio photogs and landscape photogs want more megapixels.

My guess is 5D3 early next year.  36 mpix,  iso characteristics similar to 5D2 on a pixel-by-pixel basis.

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2011, 01:24:26 PM »

Fleetie

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2011, 01:35:35 PM »
I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around £7.1k. OOF!

OK, why not get the 70-200 f4 IS - the low light capabilities of the 1DX is sooo good that the f4 will be more than adequate, and half the weight of the f2.8 MkII version.

Done a wedding reception last night with my 5D2 and was suddenly aware of how much easier that 51k ISO would have made my job. Maybe not as much as it would cost you, but i am not relishing the idea of having to splash out £4k+ for a 1DX - but you really are getting the extra money's worth.
Because I already have it (70-200 f/4 L IS)! And I love it! It is a fantastic lens! But apparently the f/2.8 is even better, and I do love OOF blur / bokeh. And the f/2.8 would/will give me even more of that creamy (OOF) yet sharp (in focus) quality. I intend to get the f/2.8, but it is 2nd in the queue, behind the 85 f/1.2 L II.
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2011, 04:09:29 PM »
yeah, the 85 f1.2 really does give the narrowest DoF.

i had a play with one for an hour one sunny afternoon - i only shot at f1.2 all the time.
But not top of my list at the moment...

VirtualRain

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2011, 05:33:14 PM »
I think there are four types of pro camera requiremets out there...

News/Sports =>  High speed, Med. print size => 1DX => FF, 12fps, Dense 61 point AF, 52K ISO, 18MP
Studio/Landscape => High quality, large print size => 5DII/III => FF, 5fps, Wide 9-19point AF, 25K ISO, 30+MP
Videographer => Can use the same camera as studio/landscape with video
Wildlife => High speed, Crop => 7D => APS-C, 8-10fps, Dense 19 point AF, 12K ISO, 18MP

Unfortunately, none of these really address my needs which are similar to the studio landscape photographer, but without the need to print at large sizes. I would prefer a low MPix FF sensor (like the 1Dx), a new AF that has points following the rule of thirds, in a body like the 7D.  But that doesn't really align with any major pro market requirements so it's not likely to happen.
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 09:37:40 AM »
But apparently the f/2.8 is even better, and I do love OOF blur / bokeh. And the f/2.8 would/will give me even more of that creamy (OOF) yet sharp (in focus) quality. I intend to get the f/2.8, but it is 2nd in the queue, behind the 85 f/1.2 L II.

The 70-200/2.8 II is excellent on FF, and does well as a walkaround lens.  I don't mind the weight, even after carrying it all day, but I wouldn't hang it from my neck.  I use a BlackRapid strap which puts the weight on my shoulder and is much more comfortable, plus leaves my hands free.

a new AF that has points following the rule of thirds

Difficult for technical reasons.  The 1D Mark IV has points that sit at the intersections.  The 1D X, 1DsIII, and 7D all come pretty close.  The 5DII is no where near. 
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 10:49:51 AM »
I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance.

I think the jury is still out on that low-light performance, and will remain out until the RAW files can be examined. 

Regarding the 2-stop improvement in ISO noise compared to the 1D IV, Chuck Westfall stated, "To get the full two stops of improved performance you’ll need to shoot in the JPEG format.  That’s not to say that high ISO performance isn’t significantly better when shooting in RAW, because it absolutely is."

Ok, so two stops compared to the 1D IV.  But that's for JPGs only.  With current images, DxO promises (and delivers!) a 2-stop improvement in ISO noise compared to in-camera JPGs.  So, the 1D X has a better in-camera jpg engine with better NR thanks to Digic5+.  Whoop-de-do.  I don't really care about improvements in JPG images because I'll be shooting in RAW.

But wait, Chuck said 'it absolutely is' significantly better in RAW.  This speaks to the cleverness of the Canon marketing team in using the 1D IV as a baseline for the comparison.  Of course, going from an APS-H sensor to a FF sensor means less ISO noise, because of the larger total area.  As beaten to death, larger pixels than the 1DsIII/5DII means nothing, although the gapless microlenses will help.  The 5DII beats the 1D IV on ISO noise, by about a 1/2-stop (which is slightly less than the improvement predicted by sensor size alone, and speaks to the improved on-sensor NR of the 1D IV).  So, my guess is the when comparing the 1D X to the 1D IV RAW files, where it really matters, we'll see somewhere a bit less than 1 stop of ISO noise improvement. 

Personally, I'm uninterested in the comparison to the 1D IV.  What interests me is the comparison of the noise from the 1D X to the 5DII RAW files.  Sadly, my guess is that we see less than 1/2-stop improvement there, probably closer to 1/3-stop.  I think the math works out that way - 2-stops compared to 1D IV in JPG, which is 1 stop in RAW and 1 stop in the conversion.  Of the RAW, 2/3-stop comes from the larger sensor, leaving 1/3-stop for tech improvement (gapless microlenses, on-sensor NR). 

So, ISO 4000 on the 1D X will look ISO 3200 on the 5DII.  Is that 'significant'?  Sure.  But it's nothing to write home about...and Martin, maybe not enough to justify the extra weight (although the low-light AF improvement is certainly also important).
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 11:00:45 AM »
I'm somewhat interested in FF, for a landscape camera, but not really hugely... If I did get a 5dIII, I would be getting it for higher resolution and improved noise over my 7d. And the higher resolution part would be something I wouldn't budge on. So, a FF18mp does not interest me!

I think that the 1DX style will probable seep more into the 7D than the 5D... Probably, the 5diii will be sort-of the what the 1DIVs would have been, except without the grip. Likely, I'm guessing it will sell for a hair over 3,000...
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 11:00:45 AM »

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 12:17:08 PM »
i hope the new 1dx is telling us alot about the up coming 5dii, especially given the age we are in and the technological abilities of today.  i know the 1dx is the cream of the crop but even half of these features on the new 5diii would be a major upgrade. 

i hope the ff sensor stays the same, no need for a larger mp sensor.  whats the point?  i personally would like to see a higher frame rate, such as atleast 6 - 7 fps (half of the 1dx would suffice here).  The dig. 5 processor is capable why not.  high iso would be a major plus also, but i would like to see some more comparable features to the nikon d700 or the upcoming d800 such as more bracketing options, and lots of focus points.

who knows whats going to happen, but i can't wait.  if its not up to my spec, i have no problems going over to the nikon d800.  id pay around $3500 for the right camera.  oh btw, i don't care one bit about upgraded video features.

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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 12:18:26 PM »
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Multiple-Exposure Feature something new for a Canon Dslr!? I'd love to see this feature included in the 5D iii.

+1: and maybe not 9AEB, but at least 5?
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Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 12:18:26 PM »