December 20, 2014, 05:00:02 AM

Author Topic: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]  (Read 18629 times)

Don Haines

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2014, 07:27:51 PM »
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Why do you think there is no 2D? Sales would be flat :)
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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2014, 07:27:51 PM »

tron

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2014, 07:31:11 PM »
I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor.
Add to them the shutter vibration issue and the raw files with lossy compression...

dslrdummy

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2014, 08:10:30 PM »

As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....

I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist but the economic reality is that I have invested in Canon and to change to a completely incompatible brand now isn't feasible for me. I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor. You clearly love your A7r but what is your experience with these issues if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind at all. 

1. It's not a "completely incompatible" system; they overlap.  Whether they overlap enough for your purposes I can't say, of course.  I would also say that for many people a complete switch to Sony wouldn't be sensible or desirable, and that I have no intention of doing so.  For me it's a marvelous adjunct which, in some situations, would be my go-to camera - at least until Canon comes up with a close substitute (high resolution, mirrorless, no loss of EF performance, etc. - preferably with IBIS...).   

2. The light leak applies under very limited circumstances, apparently (very long exposures in near-total darkness but with a bright light hitting part of the lens mount), and doesn't only apply to Sony cameras.  Check out Roger Cicala's blog post on the subject at lensrentals.  I never shoot in such conditions, so it's simply not an issue for me (or, I suspect, for 99.9% of people 99.9% of the time).  The shutter-shock problem is far more real (see below).

3.  AF performance with EF lenses is unquestionably inferior in terms of speed - it's not *that* slow, but if you're used to the near-instantaneous focusing you get with the best Canon lens/body combinations it will seem slow (rather comical too - it ambles towards the subject, pauses, goes a bit beyond and then comes back); and it's slow compared to native FE lenses, of course.  But it's probably not inferior in terms of accuracy; in some respects it's superior: one benefit of a mirrorless body is that with on-sensor focusing there's no need to worry about back/front focusing.  If you plan to use it to photograph things that don't move, it's not an issue.  But don't even consider it if you want to photograph sports, children running around, herons-catching-fish, etc. and rely on AF to do so.

4.  As for IQ, I've used these EF lenses: 24-105L, 28mm 2.8 IS, 40mm, 85mm 1.8, 100 L (no AF with this, but the other electronic connections work) and 70-200 f4 IS.  I haven't performed anything resembling a scientific comparison of these lenses on the A7R vs 5DIII or 6D, but I feel confident in saying that not only is the image quality not inferior on the Sony body it's probably superior (I was shocked by the superb image quality I was able to get from the 85mm 1.8 when I first attached it). 

At the time I decided to buy an A7R I had used one exclusively with Canon lenses - it was because the results were so good that I wanted one, and it was not until I had owned it for a while that I bought the two native FE primes; they're superb too, especially the remarkable 55mm 1.8. 

Having said all that, there may well be Canon lenses that don't work as well on the two Sony A7s - I have no first hand knowledge one way or another - but based on what I've read the main problems are with wide angle Leica lenses due to a design that simply doesn't apply to Canon lenses.  I would also add that if you want to use old Canon MF lenses, it's far easier to manually focus on a mirrorless camera (thanks to magnification and focus peaking) than it is on any dslr, especially if you use wide apertures; and Sony's focus peaking and magnification work at least as well as anyone else's.

5.  One flaw you didn't mention is the much-discussed shutter-shock.  This is real, and, in my experience, shows up if your shutter speed is 1/100-1/125, regardless of the lens (apparently it's worse if you use a tripod, but I don't and thus can't comment).  It doesn't seem to be a problem at other speeds, including slower speeds (though you may encounter the usual too-slow-shutter problems if you're not using a lens with IS; IS has no effect on shutter-shock, of course); I've taken plenty of sharp photos at 1/60 (a speed these cameras seem inordinately fond of if you let them decide the shutter speed).  If you avoid 1/100-1/125 you'll be fine.

I hope some of this helps.  Far more competent/savvy/knowledgeable people than I have written about all of this, though, so don't rely  too much on what I've written!
That's very helpful, many thanks for taking the time.
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mkabi

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2014, 08:38:32 PM »
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...
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atkinsonphoto

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2014, 09:11:17 PM »
Just picked up the new 4D from the future store. Timespace will never look the same again. It's got slo-time exposure and fast forward frame rates of 10 seconds+. AF connects seamlessly to my neck chip/eye link/contact lens. The contact is a 12-400mm L IS-TS (Time Stablization). What a multiverse monster!

JohnDizzo15

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2014, 09:29:32 PM »
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....

Intriguing

dilbert

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2014, 10:47:13 PM »
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....

Intriguing

You can do that now and convert your 22MP 5D3 into a 5.5MP camera.

If you've got a full raw sensor dump then you can bin it any which way you want as the binning is software, not hardware.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 11:20:17 PM by dilbert »

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2014, 10:47:13 PM »

Lawliet

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2014, 11:00:38 PM »
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....

Phase One beat you on that idea!  :P
Admitted, going from ISO800 to ISO3200 that way won't get anybody from FF/APS-C-Land excited, but the idea is there.

wickidwombat

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2014, 11:19:51 PM »
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...

you should give yourself an uppercut for having that conversation with someone that knows nothing about cameras in the first place, as 1) they dont care 2) would rather take selfies for their social media outlet of choice with their phone...
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2014, 11:21:57 PM »
The reason they haven't come out with the thing you personally want is that they don't have to.  They will produce new products when the market demands them.  Until then, they'll milk (MILC?) the R&D they already have invested in the current line.
Granted the camera business is much different so this is maybe slightly sketchy of a comparison, but such an attitude isn't always the best for a company. Look at Atari, the engineers wanted them to release an advanced new computer with GUI and mouse and multi-tasking and crazy level graphics and audio but the management said they hadn't finished milking the old 8bit line yet and saw no point in it. Who uses an Atari home computer today? Plenty of other such cases.

Canon is a large, diversified company with a lot of R&D and clever management.  I would be surprised if they don't have the basic tech available when the need (==strong market pressure) arises.  If some other company starts out-competing the 5D3 and 1DX, I am confident that Canon can match their products in a year or less.

The fact that Canon HAS not put advanced tech in the cameras does not mean they CAN not do so.

I'm not sure they have had the tech for more DR and it didn't seem like they cared enough early on. Anyway, Atari had the tech and the point is they didn't use it until well they didn't have enough money left to use it and the tech went to CBM and by that time the MAC had already come out (and while vastly inferior, all the Apple fanboys and Windows fanboys made it hard for anything to strike at that point with the impact it could have had it arrived earlier). But anyway the two scenarios are different.

Lawliet

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2014, 12:05:53 AM »

I'm not sure they have had the tech for more DR and it didn't seem like they cared enough early on. A

What could stop them from reading the individual sensor cells of a dual pixel at different amplifications? Blending the exposures isn't exactly beyond high school math either. I.e. thats what you can get via Magic Lantern, just without the potential resolution loss, because you don't have to fall back to sensels that where meant to provide spatial data.

CarlTN

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2014, 12:52:28 AM »
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...

you should give yourself an uppercut for having that conversation with someone that knows nothing about cameras in the first place, as 1) they dont care 2) would rather take selfies for their social media outlet of choice with their phone...

Lol @ "give yourself an uppercut".

I only used the term "3D" because that's what was referred to in the ongoing rumor.  I doubt they would call it "3D" also...they'd probably calling "EOS Ashton Kutcher Butcher"...:D

Don Haines

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2014, 06:49:54 AM »
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)
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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2014, 06:49:54 AM »

wickidwombat

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2014, 06:40:53 PM »
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*
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Hannes

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

erm, you mean four? Or was it eleven

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Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »