July 21, 2018, 04:11:02 AM

Author Topic: The Bride chose my images instead of the photographer, how much should I charge?  (Read 81253 times)

privatebydesign

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I find it very amusing that somebody who obviously knows the right thing to do, but isn't inclined to do it because he also wants some money, has His Holiness the Dalai Lama as his avatar.

It's no different from any other business using Christian symbols or references to give the impression that they do good, honest work when many do not.

I have no time for them either. Having said that, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has an extraordinary reputation for non confrontation, peace, calm, and ethical simplicity. These qualities are recognised world wide and far outside the Buddhist faith, aligning yourself with these values, whilst not actually adhering to them, is what made me laugh.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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jdramirez

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I have no time for them either. Having said that, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has an extraordinary reputation for non confrontation, peace, calm, and ethical simplicity. These qualities are recognised world wide and far outside the Buddhist faith, aligning yourself with these values, whilst not actually adhering to them, is what made me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVU3i38nmzs

The flowing robes... the grace... bald... striking. 

Big hitter the lama...
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

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Orangutan

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Hey fir0002...so for your first post on CR you have decided to:

I've dealt with many a lawyer in my professional career... I hate to say this... but he has the right attitude.  There is a certain hubris that accompanies a specific knowledge of the law...

That's certainly appropriate in legal dealings, but not at cocktail parties, picnics and informal camera forums.  The key is to learn to proper context switching.

Orangutan

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And also Fir - just because something is "legal" doesn't make it ethical. 

This is an unfortunate confusion that many lawyers have, it seems as though many law schools actually teach that nonsense.  Some lawyers will eventually outgrow it.

It take a certain moral ambiguity to represent a murderer, rapist, or tax dodger... but I think we are starting to digress about what is wrong with the legal profession... Keep in mind you don't want to be guilty of a crime and your lawyer throws you under the bus.

I have friends who are criminal defense lawyers; and I detect in them no moral ambiguity at all, they're some of the kindest people I know.  The attitudes I hear are: defending the US Constitution, making the prosecutors do their jobs (perform due diligence) and try to prevent the defendant from being convicted beyond actual culpability.

Outside of their work you'd never know they were lawyers. And yes, they're good at what they do professionally, they just know how to separate work from non-work.

Orangutan

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I totally agree especially when you say:

[Think a lot of the comments here are fuelled by "professionals" feeling a bit insecure about second shooters :P ]

There are few professional wedding photographers on this forum and few in this thread.  Rather, I think a lot of the comments here are fueled by people with a moral compass.  I'd trust a lawyer for legal guidance, but not for ethical guidance (and I wouldn't trust a law student for either!).

Frankly, your original post and subsequent comments (including the ones that are obvious backpedalling) say much about your sense of ethics.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt: I don't think he backpedaled so much, as filled-in more details that were missing in his OP.  My guess is that he thought he understood that he had rights, and was seeking a price.  After some discussion, he may have learned that his assumptions may not have been right.  He dealt with it.  Being wrong happens to every human every day.  The question is how you deal with it.

unfocused

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Before this conversation veers too far off-topic, a general observation:

As annoying as many of the forum participants can be (and I don't exclude myself from that category) when discussing trivia like sensor size, dynamic range, ISO performance, etc. etc., I find it comforting that over eight pages of discussion the vast majority of comments reveal persons with reasonably strong moral compasses who know right from wrong regardless of legal technicalities.

Joe M

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Not knowing Australian law, I will have to take the student's word for what is legal.
I take it to mean the OP is free to sell his images.  I will also take him (OP) at his word that he contacted the pro who worked the day. 
I still stand by what I said though and that is the benefit the OP gained was the experience and photos for his future portfolio.  He should be more than satisfied with that and not be too concerned with making cash from the bride.  That said, I wonder if the pro has learned of the OP wondering if he should bypass the pro.  While it may be legal for the OP to do so, I'm sure the pro would not be too thrilled to be bypassed when the OP was not there in any professional fashion. 
I know if I were showing a student the ropes (have done so in the past), and they were to bypass me in this manner, I'd not be inviting them along ever again.  This isn't likely to happen with me as my seconds always use my equipment which of course means my cards.  Irking the pro who has graciously taken you under his/her wing is not something you want to do.  A lot of people think the pro shooting the wedding simply presses a shutter and it's far from the truth.  That's actually the most simple and easiest part of the business because that's what we're good at and love to do.  The real work is in building and maintaining the business, finding and securing customers, developing our people skills because they are hiring you, advertising/marketing, the massive investment in camera/computer/software along with the knowledge to use it all properly and of course the fact that all that took money.  And then someone wonders why my photo costs so much.  It's the sum of all those things, not just the cost of a print.  And while the OP or a legitimate second takes a shot and thinks it's of value, you haven't taken into consideration all the owner of the business has put into your photo.  My seconds understand this and they are great at what they do and are well compensated with everything spelled out in terms of expectations. 
I hope the pro is not irked at you and you can chalk this up as a lesson learned and can keep up with the business building.  good luck.   

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RustyTheGeek

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I totally agree especially when you say:

[Think a lot of the comments here are fuelled by "professionals" feeling a bit insecure about second shooters :P ]

There are few professional wedding photographers on this forum and few in this thread.  Rather, I think a lot of the comments here are fueled by people with a moral compass.  I'd trust a lawyer for legal guidance, but not for ethical guidance (and I wouldn't trust a law student for either!).

Frankly, your original post and subsequent comments (including the ones that are obvious backpedalling) say much about your sense of ethics.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt: I don't think he backpedaled so much, as filled-in more details that were missing in his OP.  My guess is that he thought he understood that he had rights, and was seeking a price.  After some discussion, he may have learned that his assumptions may not have been right.  He dealt with it.  Being wrong happens to every human every day.  The question is how you deal with it.

Not me!  I'm never wrong!  I'm simply mistaken sometimes.   ;D
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

Joe M

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Think a lot of the comments here are fuelled by "professionals" feeling a bit insecure about second shooters :P


Insecurity has nothing to do with it.  What it has to do with is that the pros invest massive amounts of time and money into their business and pressing a shutter is only a very small part of it.  The second shooter did not build a website, build a portfolio, invest in computers/software/camera equipment as well as the knowledge of how to use it all properly, advertise and market the business, pay for insurance and licensing, develop people skills, spend time meeting with the couple and helping them plan their day, develop contacts throughout the wedding community of ministers, churches, venues and on and on.  The second shooter would not be taking the shot if not for the fact the pro created the situation he/she will find him/herself in on the wedding day.  It's not far different than many people who think wedding photographers make huge sums of money "per hour" the day of a wedding.  Some do not realize how much time, money and effort came before the day that has to be paid for.  I actually have a steady second.  I also have a few who can take over in case of illness.  They actually live as a second and have no interest in the massive amount of work involved in being a business owner.  Sometimes I can't blame them.  It would be nice to simply let someone else do all the work and work only on the day.  Not that shooting on the day isn't work, but when you're done for the day, you're done.  And there was nothing leading up to it except to go over the schedule for the day.  So no, insecurity has nothing at all to do with it. 

jdramirez

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I personally hate weddings.  I had a bad experience once at one... and yada yada yada... the bride still lives in my house and nags at me on a daily basis.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L-> 85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm -> 85mm f/1.2L mkii

chriswolf

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Not knowing Australian law, I will have to take the student's word for what is legal.
I take it to mean the OP is free to sell his images.  I will also take him (OP) at his word that he contacted the pro who worked the day. 
I still stand by what I said though and that is the benefit the OP gained was the experience and photos for his future portfolio.  He should be more than satisfied with that and not be too concerned with making cash from the bride.  That said, I wonder if the pro has learned of the OP wondering if he should bypass the pro.  While it may be legal for the OP to do so, I'm sure the pro would not be too thrilled to be bypassed when the OP was not there in any professional fashion. 
I know if I were showing a student the ropes (have done so in the past), and they were to bypass me in this manner, I'd not be inviting them along ever again.  This isn't likely to happen with me as my seconds always use my equipment which of course means my cards.  Irking the pro who has graciously taken you under his/her wing is not something you want to do.  A lot of people think the pro shooting the wedding simply presses a shutter and it's far from the truth.  That's actually the most simple and easiest part of the business because that's what we're good at and love to do.  The real work is in building and maintaining the business, finding and securing customers, developing our people skills because they are hiring you, advertising/marketing, the massive investment in camera/computer/software along with the knowledge to use it all properly and of course the fact that all that took money.  And then someone wonders why my photo costs so much.  It's the sum of all those things, not just the cost of a print.  And while the OP or a legitimate second takes a shot and thinks it's of value, you haven't taken into consideration all the owner of the business has put into your photo.  My seconds understand this and they are great at what they do and are well compensated with everything spelled out in terms of expectations. 
I hope the pro is not irked at you and you can chalk this up as a lesson learned and can keep up with the business building.  good luck.   

+1

Thank you
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Orangutan

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I personally hate weddings.  I had a bad experience once at one... and yada yada yada... the bride still lives in my house and nags at me on a daily basis.

I saw the punchline coming, and it still made me laugh.   :D

chriswolf

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I find it very amusing that somebody who obviously knows the right thing to do, but isn't inclined to do it because he also wants some money, has His Holiness the Dalai Lama as his avatar.

It's no different from any other business using Christian symbols or references to give the impression that they do good, honest work when many do not.

Gentlemen who do you think you are to say something like that? God?
Seriously you should know someone before you throw out you sentences.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 11:04:59 AM by chriswolf »
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Badger

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Chris,

I think what you should do really doesn't have much to do with the law, but more to do with what's right.

I give you credit, it sounds like you are trying to do what's right and have put your neck on the line by asking for advice here. It also sounds like you have done what I would have suggested in asking the pro or at least, bringing him into the loop and getting his blessing.

While there might be a bunch we don't know here, I am dying to know what the pro's response or advice is.

On an aside, did you give the pro all your pictures or was it just the 40 images? If not all, were the 40 you gave random or what you thought were the best? Are the pictures the bride likes from the 40 you gave the pro or others? This question really is just an aside. I don't think it changes anything, just curious.

I have been in a slightly similar situation where I showed up at a friend's reception and brought my camera just in case they hadn't hired a photographer. It turns out they had hired a photographer but I took some pictures anyways. I didn't think much of it till now, but shortly after the wedding, the bride (my friend) asked if I would share my pictures. I didn't think twice, and sent her all the pictures I took, for free. These were just candids I took at the reception, mostly of neighbors and other guests who were present but some of the bride and groom also.

Hang in there Chris, I know you have taken a beating here, but if your heart wasn't in the right place, you wouldn't have asked. I'm sure you will do the right thing, local laws be damned.
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TexPhoto

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A few notes.  Wedding photography is a business, and there is far more to it than taking good photos.  Finding the client, booking the gig, delivering the album etc are as important as taking good photos/post processing them, and far more time consuming.  If you get paid for this you should be splitting the money with the pro who did all the leg work.

You should have had this agreed to before, and your relationship with the pro will probably be far more lucrative than the photos you might sell today.

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