October 25, 2014, 08:52:28 PM

Author Topic: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !  (Read 15278 times)

CarlTN

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 02:54:32 AM »
I have the old sigma 50mm, kicks pants off canon 1.4, especially build quality,  but also sharpness. My canon, along with many unfortunate consumers out there, broke from light usage, the focussing mechanisms/moving front element are fragile as. $250 to fix on a $400 lens, no thanks canon especially since the service centre dude said its likely to happen again. Been happy with the sigma for years so any talk about poor quality/qa etc. doesn't exist in my book.  I bought the sigma 35 1.4 due to my positive experience with the 50, it is wonderful.
I will look forward to seeing shots from the new sigma 50 and will consider upgrading only if it is phenomenally sharp, my current one is tops.

If you're new to the forum, welcome!  As for the attributes of the new "art" 50...I would think the quality of the bokeh should carry more weight than its ultimate sharpness.  Who needs an f/1.4 lens if the bokeh is not superb?

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 02:54:32 AM »

CarlTN

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2014, 02:57:51 AM »
For info for those interested DXO mark one of the most trusted resources online

Come on guys, give the guy a break. He obviously just misspelled "least".

+1 LOL !!   ;D

100

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2014, 06:27:43 AM »
In this thread I see 2 photos
The first: f/6.3 and 1/2500
The second: f/4.5 and 1/125
You don’t need a f/1.4 lens for those and you don’t need a stabilized f/2 lens either. Any 24-70 zoom will do just fine.

I think most people buy fast primes because they need fast enough shutter speed in low light conditions and/or want the artistic quality of the out of focus areas wide open. If you want to compare fast primes, compare them where it matters (between f/1.4 and f/2.5 because zooms in this focal length range will do f/2.8.)

The Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS won’t do f/1.4 f/1.6 and f/1.8 so you can’t compare the results to both the Canon 35mm f/1.4L II and the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art.
The 35mm f/2 IS might have the nicest bokeh (a subjective quality so others might disagree) @ f/2 but what good is that if you need f/1.4 f/1.6 or f/1.8?

The Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS has stabilization, so you could take handheld shots up to 4 times slower shutter speed.
Up to 1/40 you don’t really need IS with a 35mm lens on full frame for stills. Shutter speeds of 1/40 and below are too slow for most moving subjects anyway, so the IS on a 35mm lens is only useful for static subjects in situation where you can’t use a tripod.
 
If you don’t shoot below f/2.8 – f/2 there is no reason to buy fast (f/1.4 – f/1.2) primes. They weigh more, they cost more and they don’t perform (much) better above f/2.8.
I don’t doubt the 35mm f/2 IS is a good lens. The stabilization is nice if you like to shoot video, but it’s still a full stop slower than the f/1.4 lenses and that's why it's hard to see a f/2 lens as a real alternative for a f/1.4 lens.

Sporgon

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2014, 07:15:26 AM »
Up to 1/40 you don’t really need IS with a 35mm lens on full frame for stills.

The rest of what you have said is perfectly reasonable, but the above statement is at best outdated and at worst inaccurate. You might be able to hand hold some shots at 1/40 with a 35mm focal length, but generally you won't make full use of your 20mp or whatever.

Shake is quite random, but with the resolution of modern digital FF you really need to be in the region of 2x focal length. Even then you can get random shake. For really critical use nothing beats a genuinely stable mounting platform, but IS is a competent substitute up to a point. Personally I find IS very useful for stills when travelling without a tripod. It allows lower ISOs, greater dof, lower shutter speeds etc when hand held.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 09:06:52 AM by Sporgon »

Artifex

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2014, 09:37:10 AM »
Up to 1/40 you don’t really need IS with a 35mm lens on full frame for stills.

The rest of what you have said is perfectly reasonable, but the above statement is at best outdated and at worst inaccurate. You might be able to hand hold some shots at 1/40 with a 35mm focal length, but generally you won't make full use of your 20mp or whatever.

Shake is quite random, but with the resolution of modern digital FF you really need to be in the region of 2x focal length. Even then you can get random shake. For really critical use nothing beats a genuinely stable mounting platform, but IS is a competent substitute up to a point. Personally I find IS very useful for stills when travelling without a tripod. It allows lower ISOs, greater dof, lower shutter speeds etc when hand held.

I have to say I disagree. With a bit of practice, you can easily have no shake at 1/30 up to 1/20 with a 35mm. At least, that's my situation.
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agierke

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2014, 10:06:22 AM »
Quote
Shake is quite random, but with the resolution of modern digital FF you really need to be in the region of 2x focal length.

my experience falls in line with this statement. slight motion blur/camera shake can be much more evident at 1:1 (focal length:shutterspeed) than it was with film. can you get a crisp shot at 1:1 situations? yes...but its quite frustrating when you don't and happens more often than i prefer.

im not in the camp that is insistent on canon including IS on every lens they produce, regardless of focal length, but i do know if i want to maximize my results for crisp images i need to follow the 2x shutterspeed:focal length rule. 
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bmwzimmer

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 11:20:32 AM »
One other thing not mentioned yet is the Canon 35 F/2 has an actual t-stop of 2.  The 35L has a T-stop of t/1.6.  So it's not really a full stop advantage when shooting in low light.  That would be about a half a stop advantage??
So in a low light situation, camera 1 with the 35L would shoot at f/1.4, 1/60, iso 800.  Camera 2 with the 35 IS would shoot f/2, 1/60, Not iso 1600, but 1200.  Sure theres half a stop more noise but you gain significantly more depth of field which is a huge plus with certain situations. 
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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 11:20:32 AM »

100

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2014, 11:55:41 AM »
Up to 1/40 you don’t really need IS with a 35mm lens on full frame for stills.

The rest of what you have said is perfectly reasonable, but the above statement is at best outdated and at worst inaccurate. You might be able to hand hold some shots at 1/40 with a 35mm focal length, but generally you won't make full use of your 20mp or whatever.

Shake is quite random, but with the resolution of modern digital FF you really need to be in the region of 2x focal length. Even then you can get random shake. For really critical use nothing beats a genuinely stable mounting platform, but IS is a competent substitute up to a point. Personally I find IS very useful for stills when travelling without a tripod. It allows lower ISOs, greater dof, lower shutter speeds etc when hand held.

At pixel level with smaller pixels you might see a small difference.
The pixel pitch of my 5D mark III (22mp) is 36mm / 5760 pixels = 0.000625mm
The original 5D (12mp) has a pixel pitch of 36mm / 4368 = 0.000824mm
So the pixel pitch of a 22mp FF camera is just 132% of that of a 12mp FF camera.
If we apply the “old” rule of thumb 1/focal length we get 1/35 second for handheld shots. Multiply that by 1.32 and you get 1/46 of a second which is pretty close to the 1/40 I assumed in my previous post.

It’s just a rule of thumb and it depends on the photographers skill and the situation they are in how well this rule applies, but I see no technical reason to multiply it by 2 when using a 20mp camera.
The 2 times focal length rule might apply if you use the Sony/Nikon 36mp FF sensor or a future 40mp+ megapixel camera.

By the way, if we compare it to the analogue days: 36 mm x 24 mm film is estimated between 4 and 16 million pixels depending on the type of film used. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_versus_film_photography
At the top end of the estimate, the difference is even smaller.

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2014, 12:05:36 PM »
One other thing not mentioned yet is the Canon 35 F/2 has an actual t-stop of 2.  The 35L has a T-stop of t/1.6.  So it's not really a full stop advantage when shooting in low light.  That would be about a half a stop advantage??
So in a low light situation, camera 1 with the 35L would shoot at f/1.4, 1/60, iso 800.  Camera 2 with the 35 IS would shoot f/2, 1/60, Not iso 1600, but 1200.  Sure theres half a stop more noise but you gain significantly more depth of field which is a huge plus with certain situations.

1.6 is not 1/2 stop above 1.4 but 1/3 stop
The Sigma 35mm Art has a T-stop of 1.5, so that's only about 1/6 of a stop above 1.4

sagittariansrock

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2014, 01:48:42 PM »
One other thing not mentioned yet is the Canon 35 F/2 has an actual t-stop of 2.  The 35L has a T-stop of t/1.6.  So it's not really a full stop advantage when shooting in low light.  That would be about a half a stop advantage??

I got this part, although its actually 2/3 stop.

So in a low light situation, camera 1 with the 35L would shoot at f/1.4, 1/60, iso 800.  Camera 2 with the 35 IS would shoot f/2, 1/60, Not iso 1600, but 1200.  Sure theres half a stop more noise but you gain significantly more depth of field which is a huge plus with certain situations.

This is where you lost me. Are you saying camera 1 with the 35L cannot simply select f/2, 1/60 and ISO 1600 to gain the deeper field of focus?
By the way, while the transmittance of the 35L might not be as higher than the 35IS as advertized, the big DoF advantage (shallowness, when THAT situation arises) still remains unaffected.
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Sporgon

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2014, 02:21:23 PM »
By the way, if we compare it to the analogue days: 36 mm x 24 mm film is estimated between 4 and 16 million pixels depending on the type of film used. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_versus_film_photography
At the top end of the estimate, the difference is even smaller.

My partner in Building Panoramics was in at the dawn of digital imaging business so I know a little about this. I haven't looked at the wiki link, but to all intents and purposes 6 to 8 mp is about equivalent to good 35mm film in terms of resolution. You can scan more meg but you end up recording grain.

Try taking 5 shots at 1/20 on a 35mm focal length hand held with no support. You will inevitably find that one or two frames have IQ damaging blur when viewed at a reasonable enlargement. ( For me it would be four out of five). You may say these are acceptable odds but when that one frame is important it becomes unacceptable.

I read many people on here claiming that the new IS primes are aimed at video, but how many people are 'serious' movie makers wanting these primes compared with the amount of still photographers ? Also when you look at the Canon cine focal length lenses for FF you would have to ask why a 24 and 28, and where are the 50 and 85 ?

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2014, 02:28:09 PM »
Also when you look at the Canon cine focal length lenses for FF you would have to ask why a 24 and 28, and where are the 50 and 85 ?

I suspect that the 50 and 85 with IS are coming.  I think it's just a matter of time.  Well, I hope they are coming. :)

Sporgon

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2014, 03:02:19 PM »
Also when you look at the Canon cine focal length lenses for FF you would have to ask why a 24 and 28, and where are the 50 and 85 ?

I suspect that the 50 and 85 with IS are coming.  I think it's just a matter of time.  Well, I hope they are coming. :)

Me too !  :)

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2014, 03:02:19 PM »

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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2014, 07:22:57 PM »
By the way, if we compare it to the analogue days: 36 mm x 24 mm film is estimated between 4 and 16 million pixels depending on the type of film used. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_versus_film_photography
At the top end of the estimate, the difference is even smaller.

My partner in Building Panoramics was in at the dawn of digital imaging business so I know a little about this. I haven't looked at the wiki link, but to all intents and purposes 6 to 8 mp is about equivalent to good 35mm film in terms of resolution. You can scan more meg but you end up recording grain.

The 4-16 megapixels are based on findings by Dr. Roger Clark. If you don’t know who that is, please follow the link this time http://www.clarkvision.com/rnc/

Try taking 5 shots at 1/20 on a 35mm focal length hand held with no support. You will inevitably find that one or two frames have IQ damaging blur when viewed at a reasonable enlargement. ( For me it would be four out of five). You may say these are acceptable odds but when that one frame is important it becomes unacceptable. 

I didn’t say 1/20, I said 1/40
For (slow) moving subjects like people at a wedding you need at least 1/60 to 1/100
The point I tried to make is that for moving subjects most photographers should be able to get the job done at those shutter speeds with a 35mm lens on a full frame camera without image stabilization. The IS will help a lot if you go down to 1/20 or 1/10 but those shutter speeds will only get you sharp images of non-moving subjects.
Because a f/1.4 lens is a full stop faster than a f/2 lens you can shoot wide open with double the shutter speed or half the iso and that’s a substantial difference in low light situations. That’s why I prefer my 35mm f/1.4 over a f/2 with IS


I read many people on here claiming that the new IS primes are aimed at video, but how many people are 'serious' movie makers wanting these primes compared with the amount of still photographers ?

I can’t speak for other people but I didn’t say the wide angle IS primes are aimed at video, I said “stabilization is nice if you like to shoot video”.
Other than video, image stabilization on wide angle prime lenses will only help you with still images of static subjects at low shutter speeds where you can’t use a tripod.
Where I live the Canon f/2 IS dropped 30% in price after about half a year. Compare that to the 8 year old Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM for which you pay about the same as when it hit the market in 2006. To me that says something about the lack of success of the 35 f/2 IS.


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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2014, 10:10:05 PM »
One other thing not mentioned yet is the Canon 35 F/2 has an actual t-stop of 2.  The 35L has a T-stop of t/1.6.  So it's not really a full stop advantage when shooting in low light.  That would be about a half a stop advantage??

I got this part, although its actually 2/3 stop.

So in a low light situation, camera 1 with the 35L would shoot at f/1.4, 1/60, iso 800.  Camera 2 with the 35 IS would shoot f/2, 1/60, Not iso 1600, but 1200.  Sure theres half a stop more noise but you gain significantly more depth of field which is a huge plus with certain situations.

This is where you lost me. Are you saying camera 1 with the 35L cannot simply select f/2, 1/60 and ISO 1600 to gain the deeper field of focus?
By the way, while the transmittance of the 35L might not be as higher than the 35IS as advertized, the big DoF advantage (shallowness, when THAT situation arises) still remains unaffected.

I think the point bmwzimmer was getting at is if both cameras/lenses were at f/2 and 1/60, the camera with the 35L would be at ISO1600 while the camera with the 35IS would be at ISO1200, giving a noise advantage in the photo taken with the 35IS.  Or alternatively, if you're trying to stop action, it's not a case of saying the 35L can shoot with half the shutter time which the 35IS would require - it's more like the 35L would be at two-thirds of the shutter time the 35IS would require (despite the 35L being at f/1.4 while the 35IS is at f/2).
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Re: New 50mm Sigma ? There are other options !
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2014, 10:10:05 PM »