October 20, 2014, 06:56:40 PM

Author Topic: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]  (Read 12307 times)

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More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« on: April 30, 2014, 04:45:47 PM »

We’re told by a few other people that Canon is working on a “foveon like” sensor for their next generation of full frame cameras. The goal is to have the new sensor tech in their next “prosumer” camera, so perhaps that means a new large megapixel camera with a smaller body than an EOS-1, or the EOS 5D Mark IV in 2015.


The replacement to the EOS 7D will have a new sensor not currently available in the Canon lineup, but we’re told the camera is being specced more on features, especially for fast action and video than brand new EOS technology. By the sounds of things, the new sensor tech is best suited for the full frame segment.


More to come…


cr


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More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« on: April 30, 2014, 04:45:47 PM »

scottkinfw

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 04:55:54 PM »
I would be up for a 5DIV.

Aside from a better image, what else would others want in a 5DIII upgrade to make it worthwhile?  Hmmmm.

I for one wold like better/faster focusing, and it would be great if they included an intrinsic automated afma adjustment like Focal, or better, if there was a way that it could be done in real time all the time.

sek

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<p>We’re told by a few other people that Canon is working on a “foveon like” sensor for their next generation of full frame cameras. The goal is to have the new sensor tech in their next “prosumer” camera, so perhaps that means a new large megapixel camera with a smaller body than an EOS-1, or the EOS 5D Mark IV in 2015.</p>
<p>The replacement to the EOS 7D will have a new sensor not currently available in the Canon lineup, but we’re told the camera is being specced more on features, especially for fast action and video than brand new EOS technology. By the sounds of things, the new sensor tech is best suited for the full frame segment.</p>
<p>More to come…</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>

sek Cameras: 5D III, 5D II, EOS M  Lenses:  24-70 2.8 II IS, 24-105 f4L, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 300 f4L IS, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8 Flashes: 580 EX II600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT
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Drizzt321

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 05:16:18 PM »
Interesting.

A 7d2 more focused on fast action definitely makes sense. Birders & sports guys will probably love that.

5d4 features...hmmm...

I'd love to have metering based on focused AF points, even if it's not the full RGB of the 1DX, it'd be great to still meter based on the AF point.

Dual CFast slots, or at worst, dual UDMA7 CF slots.

More AFMA points along a zoom could be nifty, not sure if needed though. Add in an automated AFMA adjust (with appropriate target of course) would be awesome.

USB3 port instead of USB2.

Full, uncompressed 4:2:2 via HDMI, and it'd be great for similar off of the USB3 port, but I find that unlikely.

'Dual-Pixel' sensor Phase Detect AF could be handy, although I'd rather the better color accuracy/DR that Foeven-like might bring.

Probably a few other things that would be great, although I highly doubt I'd buy it day one. My 5d3 is working great, but eventually I imagine I'd go for a 5d4. Some day. Unless I win the lotto first *crosses fingers*
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2n10

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 05:18:31 PM »
As a birder with a 7D I like that it is to have great speed and so on.
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BL

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 05:32:10 PM »
Can someone help me understand why foveon sensors are a big deal? 

I get that the 3 layers can do away with moire and other false color noises, but this tech doesn't feel like a game changer, and rather a small evolution of what we currently use now.
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Dylan777

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 06:41:43 PM »
Use this sensor to FF mirrorless, similar to Sony A7 series body size ;)

I doubt I'm the only one in CR want a Canon FF mirrorless + some pancakes ;)

« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 07:29:03 PM by Dylan777 »
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ScottyP

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 06:43:22 PM »
I think they lost me at "Foveon-like". 

So it will have all the negatives of a high MP camera, like massive files to store, and a slowed FPS, and a faster-clogging buffer, but none of what you actually want from all those MP's, namely higher resolution and more detail to spare when doing things like shooting at high ISO, or cropping heavily.

Am I missing something wonderful about Foveon?  If so, then so is everyone else based on the failure of Sigma's Foveon bodies to fly off the shelves.  Why not copy FUJI sensors instead?  That more complex, non-bayer pixel, no filter thing sounds much more interesting to me, anyway. 

Crud.
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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 06:43:22 PM »

gmrza

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »
I would be up for a 5DIV.

Aside from a better image, what else would others want in a 5DIII upgrade to make it worthwhile?  Hmmmm.

I for one wold like better/faster focusing, and it would be great if they included an intrinsic automated afma adjustment like Focal, or better, if there was a way that it could be done in real time all the time.


I wonder if it might not be a little early for a 5DIII replacement, because a lot of people have not fully ammortised the purchase cost of their 5DIIIs yet.  When the 5DIII came, most people with 5DIIs sorely needed to replace them, so there was an almost guaranteed revenue stream for Canon.  I think Canon would want to delay a launch long enough to guarantee a sufficiently strong stream of upgrades.
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Lee Jay

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 07:38:22 PM »
I wonder if quad pixel technology, with a blue, a red, and two green pixels under a single microlens would be Foveon like to Canon.

EverydayGetaway

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 08:42:37 PM »
I think they lost me at "Foveon-like". 

So it will have all the negatives of a high MP camera, like massive files to store, and a slowed FPS, and a faster-clogging buffer, but none of what you actually want from all those MP's, namely higher resolution and more detail to spare when doing things like shooting at high ISO, or cropping heavily.

Am I missing something wonderful about Foveon?  If so, then so is everyone else based on the failure of Sigma's Foveon bodies to fly off the shelves.  Why not copy FUJI sensors instead?  That more complex, non-bayer pixel, no filter thing sounds much more interesting to me, anyway. 

Crud.

Do your homework before b***ing.  Foveon sensors are a big deal for landscape shooters.  If Canon can sort out the processing time for that sensor tech, they'd have a big hand in sensor tech.

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 08:46:19 PM »
I think they lost me at "Foveon-like". 

So it will have all the negatives of a high MP camera, like massive files to store, and a slowed FPS, and a faster-clogging buffer, but none of what you actually want from all those MP's, namely higher resolution and more detail to spare when doing things like shooting at high ISO, or cropping heavily.

Am I missing something wonderful about Foveon?  If so, then so is everyone else based on the failure of Sigma's Foveon bodies to fly off the shelves.  Why not copy FUJI sensors instead?  That more complex, non-bayer pixel, no filter thing sounds much more interesting to me, anyway. 

Crud.

I thought with Foveon-like you'd actually have higher effective resolution & detail, because no de-bayering needs to occur. Plus, no anti-aliasing filter generally needed. Granted, based on Wikipedia, the way in which Sigma resolution (the number of actual pixels) doesn't add up to the same spatial resolution (number of actual pixel buckets), but 3xPixels since they considered each photosite, even those within the same pixel bucket, as being part of the Mega-Pixel count.

That said, based on the Wikipedial article, a Foveon sensor likely would outperform a slightly higher spatial resolution bayer pattern sensor in general.

If Canon has a improved QE significantly, and individual color response for each photodiode and improved the read-out times, it might make for awesome photos, even if the actual spatial resolution stays at it's current value, or even decreases slightly.
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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 08:51:23 PM »
Canon has several patents relating to Foveon like sensors that claim to bypass the problems with the Sigma Camera and its Foveon sensor.  If they can eliminate the issues in the technology, I'd go for one.
 
One issue with Digital cameras is color accuracy and depth.  Its not bad, but can be greatly improved.
 
Once again, video at the professional level would be the biggest benefactor.

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 10:28:11 PM »
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<p>We’re told by a few other people that Canon is working on a “foveon like” sensor for their next generation of full frame cameras. The goal is to have the new sensor tech in their next “prosumer” camera, so perhaps that means a new large megapixel camera with a smaller body than an EOS-1, or the EOS 5D Mark IV in 2015.</p>

<p>More to come…</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>


Uh-oh.  Foveon like 5D4?  My bank account trembles.

Assuming, of course, that we get excellent high ISO, fast readout (effectively frames per second), and even better autofocus.


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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 10:28:11 PM »

EchoLocation

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 10:50:17 PM »
after using DSLR's for years, I can say that they are simply too big for me.
If Canon wants me to buy one of their products in the future, then they should focus on making a FF camera of the a7 ilk.
I use my EOS-M a lot and love it, except that it is rather poor in low light, has no flash and no viewfinder. If Canon wants me to consider buying their products in the future, instead of just reading about them, they will have to solve these issues.
This 5DIV tech sounds cool, but in my case(where size matters quite a bit,) DSLR's are way more camera then I need on a regular basis
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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 11:11:12 PM »
I think they lost me at "Foveon-like". 

So it will have all the negatives of a high MP camera, like massive files to store, and a slowed FPS, and a faster-clogging buffer, but none of what you actually want from all those MP's, namely higher resolution and more detail to spare when doing things like shooting at high ISO, or cropping heavily.

Am I missing something wonderful about Foveon?  If so, then so is everyone else based on the failure of Sigma's Foveon bodies to fly off the shelves.  Why not copy FUJI sensors instead?  That more complex, non-bayer pixel, no filter thing sounds much more interesting to me, anyway. 

Crud.

Your making a LOT of assumptions. The "negatives" of high MP cameras can be mitigated. With on-die CP-ADC (which canon does have a patent for), they can dramatically improve readout speed (they already proved they could read out a 120mp APS-H sensor at 9.5fps). With CFast 2 technology, we'll have faster write to memory, so the buffer won't necessarily be a problem. With Foveon, we get full color information at every single pixel, full spatial information, no longer need AA filters that are nearly as strong as is usually necessary with Bayer, etc.

Sigma's failure is that they market their product with lies and misleading information, and their bodies/firmware have never been very good (in comparison to Canon and Nikon bodies anyway.) Basing the success of ALL layered sensor designs on Sigma's success is a fallacy.

Fuji's 6x6 pixel interpolation is just another way of blurring high frequency data, only it is LESS effective than a standard AA filter. I covered this in very great detail in a long topic a while back, and the impact of the 6x6 pixel interpolation is quite obvious when comparing fine detail (i.e. hairs, telephone wires, etc.) between Fuji's X-Trans sensor and pretty much any bayer sensor.)

I could care less about what technology "sounds" more interesting. I care about what technology DELIVERS better results. Canon is a very conservative company...if they are going to move to a Foveon-like sensor design, then they must have solved some of the more significant problems that Sigma has encountered, and made it a viable design. They wouldn't bet on it if they hadn't. (And the chances hey HAVE solved many of those problems is very high, Canon has a couple patents on layered foveon-like pixels that use a different structure both for the photodiodes themselves, as well as readout; throw in their patents for on-die per-column dual-rate ramp ADC, and Canon could have a real powerhouse sensor in development that could really give the competition a run for the money...especially if it hits at a literal 40mp (i.e. 120 million photosites in 40 million actual pixels, not a trumped up 40mp like Sigma's Foveon.))
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:32:37 AM by jrista »

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Re: More Sensor Technology Talk [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 11:11:12 PM »