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Author Topic: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor  (Read 31759 times)

dadgummit

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 11:15:38 AM »
I wonder if this could eliminate the need for IR conerted cameras?  Maybe with this sensor you could only record the light from one of the layers.   
I know this is a small market and not at all likely the original point of the sensor but it could potentially be a happy side effect. 

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 11:15:38 AM »

mackguyver

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 11:36:04 AM »
I wonder if this could eliminate the need for IR conerted cameras?
IR converted cameras are a niche item, but IR surveillance cameras are a huge market!

Purely coincidence of course  ;-)

...but a week or two before the 7D was announced, there was a Canon multi-layer patent, which was apparently related to the dual layer one that appeared in the 7D as its metering sensor.

Keith, thanks for the great info as always, and I'm curious, how does the 7D metering sensor compare to the 1D X metering sensor?

The 1Dx says "252 zone from 100,000-pixel RGB AE sensor"
The 7D just says 'dual layer 63 zone'

I've never seen more details about the 1D X

The 5D3 does say though "iFCL metering with 63-zone dual-layer sensor" which would suggest that the 7D metering chip went into the 5D3 but something more went into the 1D X

Thanks, and I guess it's a mystery to all of us...
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Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2014, 11:37:10 AM »
Don, this is going to be really a meaningfull innovation when an actual product will hit the shelves ... untill then this remains only a patent.

It still represents a commitment to R&D, which is important.  But not everything you throw at the wall sticks.

Fully agree.  It shows Canon is working on next generation sensors.  On the other hand, real products matter and many large tech companies file a lot of patents defensively so that no one else can develop a product and then sit on the technology rather than invest in developing real products.

Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2014, 11:46:01 AM »
Does the comment from Northlight that the patent doesn't show any pixel structure make sense?  If it's a layered (Foven type) sensor then there wouldn't be any "pixel structure" per se.

Lawliet

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 11:50:15 AM »
This is likely to mean very near IR and very near UV, and thus existing lenses would be okay.  Far UV would be removed by the glass, as would far IR. 

Very near would be enough to solve for example the purple/violett problem, i.e. colors that would be represented as a red/blue blend in RGB, but due to being of shorter wavelength then blue only register on those blue sensor cells and shift colors.

Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 12:02:08 PM »
This is likely to mean very near IR and very near UV, and thus existing lenses would be okay.  Far UV would be removed by the glass, as would far IR. 

Very near would be enough to solve for example the purple/violett problem, i.e. colors that would be represented as a red/blue blend in RGB, but due to being of shorter wavelength then blue only register on those blue sensor cells and shift colors.

"Red/blue blend" and "shorter wavelength than blue" doesn't quite jive... can you explain further what you mean?

rrcphoto

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 12:14:10 PM »
I wonder if this could eliminate the need for IR conerted cameras?  Maybe with this sensor you could only record the light from one of the layers.   
I know this is a small market and not at all likely the original point of the sensor but it could potentially be a happy side effect.
it certainly could - while it's a small market - the ability to flip a sensor and shoot strictly UV or IR or a combination - would be incredible; and there's more converted cameras out there than some give credit to.



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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 12:14:10 PM »

Lawliet

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 12:21:12 PM »

"Red/blue blend" and "shorter wavelength than blue" doesn't quite jive... can you explain further what you mean?

You can get violet hues either directly from the pigment or by mixing red and blue(additive color mixing is the key word, or two flashlights with gels for experimenting) - your screen does the latter. Nature has a bit of both.
Now look at a picture, preferable a drawing, not a photo, of a rainbow; the colors go red(long wavelength) orange yellow green blue (and now the violet hues the camera mistakes for blue, because the red you'd require to mix the color is so far away it doesn't register on the corresponding sensor cells).

Now you can have two problems: really bad reproduction of some colors, think flowers, minerals and such. And the other occurs if two things have the same color, but use the different ways to get it as described at the start. half the stuff will be properly pink, magenta, violet - but the other renders in blue. Now you can't even explain that this is the way its supposed to be...

Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2014, 12:25:56 PM »
I wonder if this could eliminate the need for IR conerted cameras?  Maybe with this sensor you could only record the light from one of the layers.   
I know this is a small market and not at all likely the original point of the sensor but it could potentially be a happy side effect.
it certainly could - while it's a small market - the ability to flip a sensor and shoot strictly UV or IR or a combination - would be incredible; and there's more converted cameras out there than some give credit to.

Not likely.  IR or UV converted cameras typically filter for just IR or UV in order to get unique images based just on those wavelengths that we can't see.  The images are "false color images" with the variation in IR (or UV) mapped back to visible wavelengths.   I would suspect that this new 5 layer sensor tech would not be designed to pick up wavelengths too far from visible... rather, just extending slightly into the IR and UV in order to use that information to improve color rendering at the edges and possibly correct better for color shifts and other optical anomalies.

Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2014, 12:59:18 PM »

"Red/blue blend" and "shorter wavelength than blue" doesn't quite jive... can you explain further what you mean?

"now the violet hues the camera mistakes for blue"

Except that the human eye works in a similar way as an RGB sensor so your eye would make the same "mistake" and therefore it wouldn't be a mistake relative to our vision.

I believe (I'm no expert) the fact that humans perceive a mix of red and blue to be "visible purple" is not the same thing as observing light of a "violet" wavelength.   If you look at an object and see it as purple it actually is preferentially reflecting red and blue wavelengths of light.  Therefore an RGB sensor would not be confused by that... the blue pixels would register the blue photons and the red pixels would register the red photons just like our eyes do.

Lawliet

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2014, 01:17:49 PM »
the blue pixels would register the blue photons and the red pixels would register the red photons just like our eyes do.

No, sensels seperate wavelengths relatively sharp via filters, while L- cone cells are still somewhat sensitve to short wavelengths; akin to the spectral response of a Foveon sensor.
Take a sample of cobalt violet for example, light reflected of it as no spike in the red band, it absorbs red light about as good as black.

brianleighty

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2014, 01:21:07 PM »
Nobody's brought it up so I'll mention it. Isn't the timing on this interesting in that Canon just released a new version of DPP that isn't backwards compatible? Maybe the new RAW formula is already in the software?
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Meh

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »
the blue pixels would register the blue photons and the red pixels would register the red photons just like our eyes do.

No, sensels seperate wavelengths relatively sharp via filters, while L- cone cells are still somewhat sensitve to short wavelengths; akin to the spectral response of a Foveon sensor.
Take a sample of cobalt violet for example, light reflected of it as no spike in the red band, it absorbs red light about as good as black.

Technically true, the response curves of our cone cells do not have sharp cut-offs but please define "somewhat sensitive to short wavelengths"... if by that you mean "close to zero" then you are right.  If you observe short wavelength light your L cones register a tiny response but the response in the S cone would be orders of magnitude higher and your brain would register that as blue light.   Similarly incident light that is green would cause a response in all cones almost equally but your brain knows that is green, rather than white because of the relative responses to blue and red components.

Our brains have to be more complex to deal with the overlap and larger range of response patterns but that still does not mean our eyes, or a sensor, would be confused by UV light.... your eye simply will not see UV light as purple... our visual perception of "visible purple" is NOT the observation of near UV light.

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »

keithcooper

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2014, 01:59:14 PM »
Does the comment from Northlight that the patent doesn't show any pixel structure make sense?  If it's a layered (Foven type) sensor then there wouldn't be any "pixel structure" per se.
I was referring to there being no details of the internal structure of the light sensitive regions, or positions of wiring interconnects and the like.

Compare it, for example, to the Canon patent drawing I linked earlier.  This one is very much a block diagram - although I like the assorted boxes and stuff on the underside, to suggest a BSI sensor...

zim

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2014, 02:07:07 PM »
got excited at the start, now thinking mmm this is for surveillance cameras, aren't patents filed long before any (if any) product sees the light of day?? jrista...... where are you help  ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Patent: Canon 5 Layer UV, IR, RGB Sensor
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2014, 02:07:07 PM »