August 23, 2014, 01:56:49 AM

Author Topic: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....  (Read 7501 times)

Don Haines

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2014, 08:10:31 AM »
I could imagine that eventually dSLRs will fade out, in the sense that dSLR style bodies would no longer be equipped with a mirror. With technologies improving, I think that eventually EVFs will have an unobservable lag time and resolution instistinguishable from an optical VF. By that time, EVFs may be preferred over OVFs because they can offer extra features such as focus peaking, "live view", histogram overlays , etc etc. and without the mirror, higher fps rates should be achievable. (Who on CR would not welcome an 1DM with 24 fps?)

Many may think that OVF will always be superior to EVFs because they are today, but a decade  ago, many also thought that film would always be superior to digital.

I do not think this is driven by declining sales figures as in the OP, but more by ever advancing tech.
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Don Haines

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2014, 08:18:15 AM »
The thing about Canon (and many consumers) is that they are conservative. When the day comes that mirrorless cameras offer better performance than DSLRs, and right now it is the AF and EVF that are lacking, the day of the DSLR will end. When they can make a better camera and sell it for less, where do you think the consumer will go?

I am particularly interested in what happens with the 7D2.... DPAF has the potential for superior autofocus to existing DSLRs.... and EVFs are getting close. There is a real possibility that this camera will be the tipping point.
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Lee Jay

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2014, 08:28:47 AM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?

EVFs suck power like crazy.  You're going to need a battery breakthrough to replace OVFs as well, or an enormous battery that more than makes up for the size difference of removing the prism and mirror.

aclectasis

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2014, 09:13:09 AM »
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Orangutan

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2014, 09:23:09 AM »
Smaller and lighter body are the primary keys to sell mirrorless cameras.

Perhaps the keys to sell mirrorless to youI want the feature set of a mirrorless in an APS-C sized body.  I want a brilliant EVF, with live histogram, zebras and focus peaking.   I want to pick my AF pattern.   I want a three-sensor (color separated) imaging system so we can dump the Bayer filter and double our light collection per unit area.
I'll bet you that right his minute, all the major manufacturers have legions of crones casting chicken bones to figure out what magic combination of size, ergonomics and features will make mirrorless a huge hit.

Once again, those are features that you want in mirrorless. Others are looking for small, light and easy to carry around.

And I said as much.  The question is not what I want, or what you want, but what will make it profitable, hence viable.

Orangutan

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2014, 09:29:43 AM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?
The human visual system already has lag, and some EVFs are getting quite close to human lag.  I think lag may be one of the first impediments to fall.

As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

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EVFs suck power like crazy.  You're going to need a battery breakthrough to replace OVFs as well, or an enormous battery that more than makes up for the size difference of removing the prism and mirror.
Yup, this one is still a real problem for event/action photographers.  For landscape/studio not so much.

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2014, 09:54:43 AM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?
The human visual system already has lag, and some EVFs are getting quite close to human lag.  I think lag may be one of the first impediments to fall.

As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

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EVFs suck power like crazy.  You're going to need a battery breakthrough to replace OVFs as well, or an enormous battery that more than makes up for the size difference of removing the prism and mirror.
Yup, this one is still a real problem for event/action photographers.  For landscape/studio not so much.

Until you take that evf into very low light. Then It shutters and flops around like a fish out of water. (With the a7 anyway.)

Orangutan

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2014, 10:32:01 AM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?
The human visual system already has lag, and some EVFs are getting quite close to human lag.  I think lag may be one of the first impediments to fall.

As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

Quote
EVFs suck power like crazy.  You're going to need a battery breakthrough to replace OVFs as well, or an enormous battery that more than makes up for the size difference of removing the prism and mirror.
Yup, this one is still a real problem for event/action photographers.  For landscape/studio not so much.

Until you take that evf into very low light. Then It shutters and flops around like a fish out of water. (With the a7 anyway.)

For now, but it's not an intractable problem.  I'm not saying mirrorless replaces OVF completely right now, but it's definitely heading that way.


dgatwood

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2014, 11:21:45 AM »

Many may think that OVF will always be superior to EVFs because they are today, but a decade  ago, many also thought that film would always be superior to digital.

Nobody with a clue thought that.



As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

Not really.  The dynamic range and color gamut of any display technology is very limited compared with the range of the sensor and your eye.  The difference becomes readily apparent when shooting at night.  Maybe in twenty years, EVFs will be able to replace OVFs, but I thought that twenty years ago, and they just haven't gotten much better in all that time, except in resolution, so I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2014, 11:25:07 AM »
As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

So you want a better idea of what the in-camera JPG conversion will look like, if displayed on an uncalibrated monitor with low resolution and a poor color gamut?  Sounds like a big minus for EVF to me, particularly for anyone who shoots RAW...
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rrcphoto

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2014, 11:34:36 AM »
As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

So you want a better idea of what the in-camera JPG conversion will look like, if displayed on an uncalibrated monitor with low resolution and a poor color gamut?  Sounds like a big minus for EVF to me, particularly for anyone who shoots RAW...

mmm exactly my feel on this too - I can visualize my postprocessing without the camera showing it's default constrast and color of the scene.


Clayton

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2014, 02:08:06 PM »
These are all good points.  The wild card is the one that may be hard (even by Canon) to track.
The 5DMII created a whole new customer base that did not exist before…. the video people.  Spread across both the Rebel line and above.  After that the large sensor video camera market exploded across the whole spectrum and its proving to be both big and profitable.  My guess is that whatever marketing numbers are floating around don’t differentiate between the customers who use their DSLR for video primarily and those who are legitimate still photographers and those in between.  The cash-flow from new video customers has not been insignificant. The Canon Cinema line is a good one but it prices users at the T5i-70D price point out of that market. 

For still photo guys the following wont matter much so you can skip this part …. but, speaking of video now, the Panasonic GH4 and SONY A7s and Black Magic will eat into Canons market share for sure.  How far Canon can respond without compromising their high end C-line will also be a challenge for them.  In the end perhaps it’s ok for them to get back more to their still picture roots but as I may have already said, its a vastly more complicated and competitive market now that it was back in the day.

Lee Jay

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2014, 08:51:36 PM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?
The human visual system already has lag, and some EVFs are getting quite close to human lag.

If they are the same, then the EVF is doubling the system lag.

Quote
As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

Sorry, EVFs don't show that, they show the in-camera JPEG conversion, which is way, way smaller than what the sensor can see.  I post this example often:




Orangutan

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2014, 10:30:31 PM »
As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

So you want a better idea of what the in-camera JPG conversion will look like, if displayed on an uncalibrated monitor with low resolution and a poor color gamut?  Sounds like a big minus for EVF to me, particularly for anyone who shoots RAW...

I'm surprised, you don't usually make bad arguments.  You have invoked the "it is thus and ever shall be" argument.  I'm saying I want an improved Live View through the viewfinder, and I believe it's achievable in the next few years.  I'm not saying current EVF is adequate.

Orangutan

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Re: DSLR ? - thinking out loud ....
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2014, 10:37:30 PM »
The problem is, you can never beat some aspects of an OVF with an EVF.  How are you going to improve on zero lag, zero power use, virtually infinite dynamic range and color gamut?
The human visual system already has lag, and some EVFs are getting quite close to human lag.

If they are the same, then the EVF is doubling the system lag.

Human vision lag is, if I remember correctly, about 100ms.  Current best EVF lag is, if I recall correctly, about 30ms.   That could easily come down to 10ms in the next few years, and I doubt you could distinguish a 10% increase from OVF.

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Quote
As for the DR and color, that's precisely why I want an EVF: I want to compose using what the sensor can see, so I have a better idea of the final image.  This is another plus for EVF.

Sorry, EVFs don't show that, they show the in-camera JPEG conversion, which is way, way smaller than what the sensor can see.  I post this example often:
The fact that they don't currently doesn't mean they can't very soon.  Do you ever use Live View?  I'm still unpersuaded that, aside from battery life, there are any serious problems with EVF that can't be overcome in a very few years.  And, when that happens, EVF will be indisputably superior to OVF.