November 26, 2014, 11:55:28 AM

Author Topic: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina  (Read 20954 times)

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2014, 10:56:05 PM »
As I said. Technology has been marching on.

Right.

But even with light-guides (to guide the light onto the photodiode), there are still limits as to much you can shrink pixels.
These are physical entities and you cannot shrink them indefinitely with a given technology.

That's the only point I'm making.
You make it sound like smaller pixels are always better - and that's not unconditionally true.

There's a physical limit that cannot be crossed.
That's why manufacturers are using finer and finer CMOS processes (Panasonic is at 65nm now).
And also looking for alternative solutions - like BSI, Sony's stacked technology, etc..

So, smaller pixels are generally better - but only when newer, more advanced technologies are used.

There's also the issue of the full-well capacity of a photodiode.
Smaller full-well capacity automatically lowers SNR. You should know that.

So, it's a balancing act, really, for pixel engineers.
A blanket statement like 'smaller pixels are always better' is just that - a blanket statement.
Some necessary small print needs to be added to discussion 8).

Sure, there is no question there are limits to how small you can shrink pixels with an FSI design. I already mentioned that ALL small form factor sensors that use 1.2µm pixels and smaller use BSI designs now.

But we are primarily talking about larger sensors. In larger sensors, we don't have the kinds of problems with maintaining incident light ratio on the photodiodes. We don't even need lightpipes...a single layer microlens works sufficiently to control over 90% of the light. A second layer would again focus any dispersal from the color filter back into the "well", again minimizing any remainder losses.

There is also a limit to how far use of finer processes will improve things for larger sensors. For smaller sensors they are essential, even with BSI, as your packing so much into increasingly small spaces. I mean, when the 0.9µm generation hits, the pixels will be smaller than the majority of the infrared bandwidth! But, large sensors still have huge pixels. It will be many generations before we drop below 3 micron pixels, assuming we ever do. It's a lot harder to make large optics perform well outside of the central FoV, and I think lens design will ultimately become the bottleneck for keeping the megapixel race alive with larger sensors.

Assuming we do reach 3 micron pixels at some point, on either a 180nm or 90nm process...that would be a 96 MEGAPIXEL sensor in full frame, and a 37 megapixel sensor in APS-C. That's WAY up there. The highest resolution sensors will probably sit around 4.5µm to 3.7µm pixel sizes for a while still, a couple DSLR generations, which puts us out another eight years approximately?

Assuming everything is manufactured on a 180nm or smaller process soon, I don't think that fill factor will be the primary or even a significant issue for APS-C and FF sensors for so long that it simply doesn't matter. In that light, I still assert that you can always do more with smaller pixels. As far as I am concerned, BRING ON THE 96mp MEGAPIXEL MONSTROSITIES!! MUHAHAHA!!

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2014, 10:56:05 PM »

x-vision

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #121 on: August 29, 2014, 11:03:14 PM »
Sure, there is no question there are limits to how small you can shrink pixels with an FSI design.

Yup. That's the clarification that I was after  :P.

Quote
As far as I am concerned, BRING ON THE 96mp MEGAPIXEL MONSTROSITIES!! MUHAHAHA!!

LOL!

You are laughing but I bet that they are going to do it in 10 (?) years.

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #122 on: August 29, 2014, 11:05:13 PM »
Sure, there is no question there are limits to how small you can shrink pixels with an FSI design.

Yup. That's the clarification that I was after  :P.

Quote
As far as I am concerned, BRING ON THE 96mp MEGAPIXEL MONSTROSITIES!! MUHAHAHA!!

LOL!

You are laughing but I bet that they are going to do it in 10 (?) years.

Oh, I'm laughing because I KNOW they are going to do it. Some people laugh at the megapixel race, but me, I'm all for it. I want as much resolution and dynamic range as I can get my hands on, particularly for landscapes.

crashpc

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2014, 02:46:38 AM »
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #124 on: August 30, 2014, 03:17:17 AM »
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.

Famateur

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #125 on: August 30, 2014, 04:26:11 AM »
Jon, Lee, thanks for all the info. It's been enlightening.

Cheers!

crashpc

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #126 on: August 30, 2014, 04:52:59 AM »
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.

We have different angle of view on that. I tried to point to a fact that if you see moire, the lens certainly resolves more than sensor itself. That way If we want to up the resolution, increasing sensor resolution still IS the way, as the lens can do that. Of course with some losses, but that´t the deal. Still worth it. If you don´t see moire in the image taken with AAless sensor where it should be, then you´re using your lens resolution potential at its full capabilities, and that´s where we (at least me) we want to go one day. One day nobody will need to be bothered with sensor resolution. It will be absolute compared to lenses we put in front of it, only what will matter will be DR, efficiency, noise supression and stuff. This megapixel fight will move to different aspect.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #126 on: August 30, 2014, 04:52:59 AM »

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #127 on: August 30, 2014, 06:19:01 AM »
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.

We have different angle of view on that. I tried to point to a fact that if you see moire, the lens certainly resolves more than sensor itself. That way If we want to up the resolution, increasing sensor resolution still IS the way, as the lens can do that. Of course with some losses, but that´t the deal. Still worth it. If you don´t see moire in the image taken with AAless sensor where it should be, then you´re using your lens resolution potential at its full capabilities, and that´s where we (at least me) we want to go one day. One day nobody will need to be bothered with sensor resolution. It will be absolute compared to lenses we put in front of it, only what will matter will be DR, efficiency, noise supression and stuff. This megapixel fight will move to different aspect.

In that respect, I agree. We DO eventually want to get sensor resolution to the point that it oversamples, eliminating the NEED for AA filters. Were a pretty long way off from that day, though. If lenses like the Otus are any indication, we can push 400lp/mm from an ultra high quality lens at wide apertures. That means we would need pixels around 1.25µm in size to simply MATCH that resolution, let alone oversample it. The theoretical limit on useful minimum pixel size is 0.9µm (900nm, well into the wavelengths of near-IR light!) A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.

So, yes, the notion of a sensor that outresolves every lens you can put in front of it is the ideal...it's a very lofty one. I think we may see sensors that outresolve lenses that peak in resolution somewhere between f/4 and f/2.8 at some point, as many current lenses already achieve their optimal near-diffraction-limited resolution somewhere around f/4. Were still talking about sensors with hundreds of megapixels, though, and the data throughput requirements are still rather insane by todays standards.

That's nothing to say of the hardware requirements for the PC's that would be used to process such images, or all the pixel-peepers who would look at their images and freak out because of how "soft" they look (when, ironically, that's the entire point...to OVERsample. :D)

crashpc

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #128 on: August 30, 2014, 06:32:36 AM »
Yes, I´m pretty aware of that it is not easy to make this work all on the fly today. Also very low sample of users put really extremely good primes on their cams, so as a manufacturer I´d say screw these few. No need to outresolve every lens on this planet. Just average prime as standard 50mm primes and 70-200 glass. This wouldn´t need so much mega or giga pixels. I guess we talk about 64 to 128Mpx for APS-C. Also you´re right about the processing power. That is why and when PC can step in. If you do less processing to the file in your cam, you will manage that data flow with great in-camera buffer (when shooting higher FPS). All this hard work for pixel peepers as I am, can be done in PC lately, where those power hugry graphic cards can take care of highly paralleled computing tasks needed to process your photos. Does it take 150-300Watts of power when it works? Who cares... And if one needs mobility and speed, the in-camera processor will be powerfull enaugh to compress your results to normal (16-32Mpx) image sizes. It´s doable in pretty near feature with slight modesty about ones expectations of speed or handling. It won´t work "just like that" with current tech, but it will work and we can sorry first few shortcomings. Especially Sony is good in throwing new buggy things on the wall and see what sticks :-)

sanj

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #129 on: August 30, 2014, 11:26:43 AM »

"whatever"! Really? Some facts thrown your way and you disregard it….

Oh... my bad.  My observations in the field have been proven wrong (Thanks LeeJay!), and I have revised my "wish list" for a new 7D.

Sanj... I appreciate all the facts that are thrown around here.  Just look at the 50+ page thread on the 7D started a few days ago.  There are so many facts in there that prove every other fact wrong that nothing could possibly be true.

I'm not disregarding the facts, I'm just stating that my opinions for a great APS-C camera are based on my own field operation.  Truthfully, I don't care about the physics.  What I care about is generating high quality images and through my own experience, I believe that my "wish list" for a great APS-C camera help create cleaner more usable files at high ISO.  I'm not about to debate what makes a pixel produce better noise.  If canon can make a 24mp APS-C camera that produces excellent quality, low ISO noise at ISO 3200... I don't care what goes into it.  In my experience, this would be a more realistic achievement if that crop sensor was 12 or 16MP.

Whokay! :)

vlim

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2014, 09:21:02 AM »
3 days left and still no news about the real specs of the 7dII and the coming lenses :o

Don Haines

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2014, 10:46:27 AM »
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)
The best camera is the one in your hands

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2014, 11:17:43 AM »
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)

Like I said...relatively FEW things process data at such high speeds. CPUs and GPUs were only a couple examples, there are a few other things that can process immense amounts of data per second...but...not many. And, as you stated, your spectrum analyzer is not portable. :P

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2014, 11:17:43 AM »

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2014, 12:00:42 PM »
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)

Like I said...relatively FEW things process data at such high speeds. CPUs and GPUs were only a couple examples, there are a few other things that can process immense amounts of data per second...but...not many. And, as you stated, your spectrum analyzer is not portable. :P

RED has designed an ASIC (like DIGIC for Canon) that processes almost 2 gigapixels per second, including wavelet compression of the raw data.

sarangiman

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2014, 07:27:12 PM »
I want as much resolution and dynamic range as I can get my hands on, particularly for landscapes.

And yet you shoot Canon...  ???

Just FYI - initial data suggest the dynamic range of the Nikon D810 at ISO 64 approaches that of the medium format Sony sensor inside the Pentax 645z (amongst others) at ISO 100.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina
« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2014, 07:27:12 PM »