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Author Topic: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights  (Read 31065 times)

phischeye

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 03:08:29 PM »
It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced.

I agree. It is either simultaneously or with a significant delay.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 03:08:29 PM »

RayS2121

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »
It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced.

I agree. It is either simultaneously or with a significant delay.

Actually, announcement cannot be simultaneous with 1DX release cycle or even overlap it in anyway especially if 5d3 has a similar sensor to 1DX and costs half as much! Canon will have to wait for 1DX to hit the market and be in users hands (2 to 3 months?) before they announce 5D3. This is a likley scenario and would be the repeat of what they did earlier with 5D2 release ~3 years ago. That time-line automatically takes 5D3 announcement to April to November 2012. Add a few months for shipping/ store availability and you arrive at Christmas 2012 or early 2013. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:41:22 PM by RayS2121 »

dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 03:52:32 PM »
Quote
And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX.  If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement; unless you are in the High MP camp and then maybe you are shopping MF's.

I disagree and that's why I have a problem with the supposed specs. The vast majority of 1DX buyers are business buyers. In these times, every business has to keep a close watch on the bottom line. Most major newspapers today are either already in bankruptcy or heading that way. Most magazines job out their work to freelancers who have to compete with one another. Given the downward price pressure on photographers in all areas, there are very few who can afford to opt for the 1DX unless they have no choice.

Here's a tip: go some place that a professional photographer that is shooting for a newspaper is using a 1D series camera and pay attention to how they shoot. Then ask yourself the question "Could they use a 5D-something?" If you answer "yes" then you're not paying close enough attention.

For starters, the 5D3 isn't going to have builtin gigabit ethernet. At the London Olympics, if you're connected via ethernet to your editors, you can forget about having your picture on the front page or in the news.

At none of the pro sporting events that I've been at have I ever seen anything less than a 1D level camera being used by registered photographers for the event. And there is very good reason for that. So I call your argument about business "downsizing" its camera purchasing "baloney."

minestrone

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 04:03:48 PM »
I've had my 5D Mark II since the first week of its release (I'm sure many of you have as well). Its been years since an update. Two things that I'm already pissed off about...

1.) I don't want to wait till 2012 for a new Full Frame.
2.) I don't want to step back in the MP count. I do products, landscapes and portraits. I don't care about FPS. I don't care about AF. Neither the original 5D or the current 5DMII were meant to be high FPS sports cameras. If you want that, buy a used 1D or a 7D.

The thought of waiting another year and having an 18MP FF is Fu*ked up.

Here's what I want (and I'm no one special so Canon won't care)

32MP or 36MP Full Frame Sensor
There were plenty of talks that the L lenses wouldn't be able to handle the 21MP from the 5D Mark II but I've taken tons of photos where the sharpness has been beyond anything I could hope for. So whatever, I'm sure it'll survive 36MP and at least do an "ok" job of rendering images.

4 FPS at 32MP
6 FPS at 12MP s-raw
The 6 FPS is a bonus. 4 FPS would suffice.

Vastly improved AF with more zone coverage.
The current diamond shape AF from the 5D Mark II is garbage. I think we can all agree that the 5DmIII needs better AF regardless if you want more or less MP/FPS.

Improved weather sealing
I have to say though, I took my 5D Mark II into a Hawaiian rainforest and it was pouring and the camera and lens did just fine. Very humid too. On another occasion I was recording rain in a grassy field and again, the 5DmII was perfectly ok. So weather sealing on this camera is NOT bad.

Better ISO noise at 6400 and 12800.
That's really as high as I ever go. If they can reduce noise by 25% in those two high ranges I'd be a happy camper. I understand that the larger the MP count the more it suffers from ISO noise. So I'm ok with whatever they can produce in this area.

Price: $2800
I'd be willing to pay $3000. Maybe I'm asking for too much and not paying enough? I don't know. I guess none of this matters since the camera looks like it'll be a MP runt.

dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 04:14:36 PM »
Now based on CR's last post on 5D3 MP levels, there is more reason to believe what I suggested above earlier is possible with the 1DX like sensor being featured in the 5D3 replacement.  In speaking about 5D3 replacement, I mean a product that will target an "average" 5D2 customor who had bought 5d2 at about ~$3000 pricepoint give or take a few.

If Canon bring out the 5D3 with the 18MP sensor from the 1DX then expect it to be closer to the current price of the 5D2 from the likes of B&H.

5D - MSRP at launch: $3299
5D2 - MSRP at launch: $2699

As best as I can tell, the 5D2 was about $600 more expensive than the 5D at its launch. So lets see just how far the 5D2 drops. It is now under $2000 ($1999 at B&H/Adorama.) If the price drop of the 5D is anything to go by, the 5D2 might drop as far as $1650 before the 5D3 appears.

Expect the Sony A9X to be much more competitive camera than the A900 was and Sony priced that at under $2000. If Sony "fix" that camera/sensor up and put it at the same price point, it could be very tough for Canon to sell a 5D3 with only 18MP and thus they'll have to cut the price.

photophreek

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 04:32:48 PM »
A 18 mp sensor is fine.  You can't print more than 10 and your eyes can't tell the difference between 21 and 32.  All I want is clean files at any ISO.  In addition, I want the 5d 3 to have the 7d AF system at a minimum, but better low light performance along with the custonization of the 7d.  Better DLA than the 7d would be good and I don't care about fps more than the current model. 

Much to the dismay of some of the responders here, this camera will not be priced at $2500.  Get ready for a $3500 price tag.  If this supposed camera doesn't show up by the summer or more positive information/specs don't emerge, then the 1D X might have a permanent spot in my camera bag. 

Minnesota Nice

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 04:34:43 PM »
I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):

Continuous AF in video
High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
Dual Digic 5+
Weather sealing

Hmmm...  That's all I can really think of aside from dual SD/Compact Flash or XQD card slots.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 04:34:43 PM »

dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 04:40:46 PM »
Much to the dismay of some of the responders here, this camera will not be priced at $2500.  Get ready for a $3500 price tag.

Why would Canon bring the 5D3 in at a price over that of the original 5D? I can see no justification for it, either in their practices nor the competitive landscape that is the current market.

photophreek

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 05:06:00 PM »
dilbert wrote:

Quote
Why would Canon bring the 5D3 in at a price over that of the original 5D? I can see no justification for it, either in their practices nor the competitive landscape that is the current market.

Canon released the 500mm Mk II priced higher than the Mk I.  In addition the 70-200 II was priced 25% more than the Mk I.  If the 5d 3 sensor is the same as the 1D X, R&D can be spread out amongst more cameras.

The 5d 3 should be priced based on the compareable Nikon model or slightly higher.  The feature/function set I described in my "wish list" 5d 3 would not be a $2500 camera and not too far from $3000+.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:08:44 PM by photophreek »

Zuuyi

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 05:09:02 PM »
The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly.  But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it.  What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

All I want is 24+MP (I would love 30+MP but not likely), 3+ FPS (sorry I don't need more), ISO/DR/Noise Improvements, and some video improvements.

It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.

dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 05:27:34 PM »
dilbert wrote:

Quote
Why would Canon bring the 5D3 in at a price over that of the original 5D? I can see no justification for it, either in their practices nor the competitive landscape that is the current market.

Canon released the 500mm Mk II priced higher than the Mk I.  In addition the 70-200 II was priced 25% more than the Mk I.  If the 5d 3 sensor is the same as the 1D X, R&D can be spread out amongst more cameras.

The 5d 3 should be priced based on the compareable Nikon model or slightly higher.  The feature/function set I described in my "wish list" 5d 3 would not be a $2500 camera and not too far from $3000+.

You're comparing lenses with cameras.

The two are completely different, albeit related, products with completely different R&D and marketing strategies.

And your wishlist is just that - your wishlist - and not Canon's recipe for a successful camera.

Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 05:27:58 PM »
It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.


Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe.... 


I disagree. CES January 2012 announcements are very unrealistic... read my reasons above and at an earlier thread here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2399.msg51182.html#msg51182


I read the article.  But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers.   Two different markets. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.  The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings.  A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus). 

If there is a delay, I think it would be rooted in production yield concerns about the new sensor that early in release, of course after the initial 1DX ships.  BTW, I do put a ton of creds into it being the same sensor for the obvious R&D and production efficiencies.  Higher MP probably in R&D, but not ready this cycle.

So I'll throw - Hard Bundle $4000 (body eventually $2500-3000) shipping in mid-summer, announce CES, as the sibling to the 1DX - into the pool.   

And of course I will probably be wrong :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:33:03 PM by Arkarch »
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dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 05:40:42 PM »
The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly.  But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it.  What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

Curiously, the 5D2 was announced in September of 2008, right in the middle of the first big recent crash. Up until a few months ago, its price was steady at around $2599. Thus it could be said that the status of the economy had little to no impact on the ability of Canon to sell the 5D2.

Quote
The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

I'm holding out for Canon to break the $2000 price barrier with the MSRP of the 5D3.

Recall that in other comments on this website that someone from Canon said that their biggest problem in engineering was bringing in all of the requisite features at the correct price point.

So ask yourselves, what price point would Canon be designing the 5D3 for? $3000? $2500? $2000?

The Sony Alpha 900 was the first full-frame camera to be sold at under $2000 but didn't really take off. With all of the excitement around the NEX and latest A65/A77, it is going to be a completely different story for the A9X and I can't see why Sony would price it higher. Sony wants to disrupt the stranglehold on the FF DSLR market that Canon/Nikon have and the best way for them to do that is with good quality, compelling features and a very attractive price. If Sony's latest announcements are anything to go by then Sony will deliver on all three fronts. We can pretty much forget about there being new compelling features in a 5D3 because that just isn't how Canon do camera design. So what's left? Quality & price. Consider that the 24MP APS-C sensor from Sony is delivering excellent IQ for the NEX-7. Given that the FF sensor for the A9X is going to have bigger pixels than that, it stands to reason that the A9X will have IQ that is at least as good as the NEX-7, if not better. So if Canon are insistent on delivering an 18MP 5D3, expect it to be the cheapest (or close to) FF DSLR announced in 2012 and for the feature set in it designed to deliver that price.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 05:40:42 PM »

RayS2121

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 05:53:29 PM »
  But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers.   Two different markets. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.  The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings.  A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus). 

If there is a delay, I think it would be rooted in production yield concerns about the new sensor that early in release, of course after the initial 1DX ships.  BTW, I do put a ton of creds into it being the same sensor for the obvious R&D and production efficiencies.  Higher MP probably in R&D, but not ready this cycle.

So I'll throw - Hard Bundle $4000 (body eventually $2500-3000) shipping in mid-summer, announce CES, as the sibling to the 1DX - into the pool.   

And of course I will probably be wrong :)

And I concur with you that you will be wrong ;)

If 5D3 is announced in CES January 2012,  I'll eat my hat ;) No 5D3 announcement before April and may be as late as end of the year around Christmas.

Canon will have stuff to show off at CES, they have just released two major cameras: 1DX and a totally new cinema system. Nikon is scrambling just to meet 1Dx and all we have from Nikon is rumors of this that or the other. Nothing CONCRETE whatsoever yet. So canon is under no major pressure. And I am sure there will be lenses annonced and more info and teasers on 1DX picture samples and "hands on" to trickle in the coming months. So  Canon can keep the pot boiling for a while yet. Sucks I know, but that's marketing. ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:55:34 PM by RayS2121 »

whatta

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 06:05:26 PM »
I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):

Continuous AF in video
High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
Dual Digic 5+
Weather sealing

Hmmm...  That's all I can really think of aside from dual SD/Compact Flash or XQD card slots.

7d2 will have a new sensor for sure. Canon might "dare" to reuse the 18mp apsc sensor (5th time) in the 650d, but not for the 7d2. And maybe a new efs 15-60 f2.8  ;)

or maybe the 650d, 700d, 70d and 7d2 will have the same apsc sensor again..
Canon 400d | efs 15-85 | efs 60/2.8 | Sigma 30/1.4 | (broken efs 17-85)

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 06:05:26 PM »