September 19, 2017, 09:45:14 AM

Author Topic: Not only Canon Users are hunting for better specs.... ;-) Alpha 7r II dreams  (Read 26305 times)

neuroanatomist

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I find it absolutely amazing and difficult to understand, how anyone can defend someone for NOT doing anything and claim that everyone being unhappy with Canon´s (apparent) roadmap are incompetent extremes.

Sorry, but you're completely missing (or else misrepresenting) the point.  Who is defending Canon for "NOT doing anything" here?  It seems to me that the only people accusing Canon of not doing anything are those unhappy that Canon is not doing the ONE thing that THEY want, namely delivering more low ISO DR (or shadow lifting latitude, if you prefer).  Not doing anything?  Who else makes a 50 MP FF dSLR with a very comprehensive complement of compatible lenses?  Who has a FF rectilinear zoom starting at 11mm, by which you are tempted?  I could go on, but you're equally familiar with the lineup.  It's manifestly evident that Canon is doing SOMEthing, and equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing, particularly given the overall state of the dSLR market. 

The only way we can make a difference is if we as a joint force push Canon to come up with what we want

What is it that 'we' want?  That can only be a viable strategy if a 'we' with the same want represents a big enough fraction of Canon's user base (current and potential).  As I've pointed out before, Canon has been behind in low ISO DR for ~6 years, meaning multiple product development cycles.  If their market research showed that particular feature to be something likely to have a significant impact on sales (i.e., a positive ROI), why would they not have addressed it?  I'd argue that's because the 'we' to which you refer, in the case of those wanting more low ISO DR, simply doesn't represent a big enough group.  Obviously, the 'we' wanting more MP was sufficiently numerous for Canon to devote R&D resources to address their want, and thus they delivered the world's highest resolution FF dSLR. 
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Sporgon

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The only way we can make a difference is if we as a joint force push Canon to come up with what we want. I, for one, was so disappointed with the 5DS/5DSR specs, that I have decided not to buy that camera and I will not buy the 11-24mm either, even though it is a very tempting lens. And I will not buy the new 100-400mm and I may not buy another Canon lens again, unless I can get sensor performance that match what  the others have. I have stopped recommending Canon to those who come for advice. A drop in Canon´s ocean, but maybe I´m not the only drop. I have a negotiated price for a Pentax 645z package, but I hesitate, because I do not wish to drag two systems around. But if the 1DX-II does not meet my expectations, I will sell every bit of Canon gear I have and start all over with something else.


Wait till the Pentax FF is announced at the end of this year  ;)  Actually in all seriousness I think that if you're so disappointed with the 5Ds specs you'd be even more so with the Pentax FF.

I'm surprised that you're adopting such an intransigent position on the 5Ds. Like yourself I'm disappointed that this camera doesn't use an interchangeable screen, but then I'm prepared to be more phylosophical over it; how many landscape photographers want ultra shallow depth of field, and for studio work you have an excellent AF system that acts as a focus confirmation with manual lenses. And then of course there is always live view.

I'm really perplexed as to what more a camera generating such huge file sizes should be expected to do that isn't  already satisfying the vast majority of potential customers, apart from the dreaded DR, which as sales ( of other models) suggests it's not a big issue for most. I've seen some of the excellent images you've posted on CR and I fail to see where you yourself have been compromised by lack of EV range or noise etc.

I don't know if you ever used film MF, but my advice is to be cautious; even in the film days when MF offered highly significant IQ improvements over 35mm the inflexibility of the cameras meant that they inevitably gave way the 35 mil much of the time, and of course in this digital age you're actually pushed to see the difference in normal output size, likely as not.


privatebydesign

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The only way we can make a difference is if we as a joint force push Canon to come up with what we want. I, for one, was so disappointed with the 5DS/5DSR specs, that I have decided not to buy that camera and I will not buy the 11-24mm either, even though it is a very tempting lens. And I will not buy the new 100-400mm and I may not buy another Canon lens again, unless I can get sensor performance that match what  the others have. I have stopped recommending Canon to those who come for advice. A drop in Canon´s ocean, but maybe I´m not the only drop. I have a negotiated price for a Pentax 645z package, but I hesitate, because I do not wish to drag two systems around. But if the 1DX-II does not meet my expectations, I will sell every bit of Canon gear I have and start all over with something else.


Wait till the Pentax FF is announced at the end of this year  ;)  Actually in all seriousness I think that if you're so disappointed with the 5Ds specs you'd be even more so with the Pentax FF.

I'm surprised that you're adopting such an intransigent position on the 5Ds. Like yourself I'm disappointed that this camera doesn't use an interchangeable screen, but then I'm prepared to be more phylosophical over it; how many landscape photographers want ultra shallow depth of field, and for studio work you have an excellent AF system that acts as a focus confirmation with manual lenses. And then of course there is always live view.

I'm really perplexed as to what more a camera generating such huge file sizes should be expected to do that isn't  already satisfying the vast majority of potential customers, apart from the dreaded DR, which as sales ( of other models) suggests it's not a big issue for most. I've seen some of the excellent images you've posted on CR and I fail to see where you yourself have been compromised by lack of EV range or noise etc.

I don't know if you ever used film MF, but my advice is to be cautious; even in the film days when MF offered highly significant IQ improvements over 35mm the inflexibility of the cameras meant that they inevitably gave way the 35 mil much of the time, and of course in this digital age you're actually pushed to see the difference in normal output size, likely as not.

Oh, that made me think of Galen Rowell.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Eldar

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We all have choices. One choice could be to stay with what we have and just learn how to get maximum performance from that (and close Canon Rumors in the process). The other is to always try to push the envelope. I agree Sporgon, I do produce some images now and then, which I am happy with. But, unfortunately, I´m a very competitive person. Within photography I primarily compete with myself though. I strive to see if I can push the quality of what I make just a little further. When my friend, with the D810 and the same Zeiss lineup as I have, and I go on a hike together and shoot pretty much the same stuff and we review our images afterwards. It becomes very simple. I want the same low ISO performance from my sensor as he gets from his.

It may be that I am too harsh on the 5DS/5DSR, since I have not tried it myself and not even seen a proper review yet. But so far it seems I am getting lots of resolution and the rest is more or less same same. Resolution was fifth on my priority list. Canon did what they could, which is to produce a larger sensor within an old proven technology. If they had been able to produce a D810 basher, I´m sure they would. They have made a major PR jippo out of being first past 50MP and I am sure they´ll succeed. But I, being just a drop in the ocean, am not onboard.

And neuro, I don´t believe for a second that you would disapprove of having more DR and improved noise performance. We all want improvements, That is the WE that should be vocal and tell Canon to fix it for us.
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NancyP

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What! 5Dsx cameras don't have interchangeable screens? To me that is a no-brainer on any full frame DSLR. The lowly 6D has interchangeable screens, which is good, because I like to use fast MF lenses.

neuroanatomist

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What! 5Dsx cameras don't have interchangeable screens? To me that is a no-brainer on any full frame DSLR. The lowly 6D has interchangeable screens, which is good, because I like to use fast MF lenses.

Is that why nobody bought the 5DIII?   :P
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quod

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Sorry, but you're completely missing (or else misrepresenting) the point.  Who is defending Canon for "NOT doing anything" here?... Not doing anything?  Who else makes a 50 MP FF dSLR with a very comprehensive complement of compatible lenses?... It's manifestly evident that Canon is doing SOMEthing, and equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing, particularly given the overall state of the dSLR market.
Since you are being your usual argumentative self, let's cut through your parsing of other people's words, shall we?  If it isn't evident, YOU are defending Canon for "NOT doing anything" in the minds of some on this forum, myself included, regarding sensor performance.  How do you defend Canon with your usual rigorous fanaticism?  You point out that Canon delivers a 50 MP FF dSLR with a "very comprehensive complement of compatible lenses."  Although Canon is the only company that has announced a 50 MP FF sensor so far, there is also a credible rumor that Sony will deliver a 50 MP FF sensor, and if the past is any indication of the future, Sony's sensor will be superior to Canon's in ways that matter to many people on this forum, perhaps with the exception of you.  Such rarified air that you breathe!  Ah, yes, but then there is the plethora of lenses.  In your argumentation, you failed to mention Canon's "very comprehensive complement of native compatible lenses."  Well, just in case you haven't heard, you can shoot Canon lenses, Nikon lenses, Leica lenses, and other lenses on Sony's mirrorless FF cameras.  It is "manifestly evident" to many, including myself, that "Canon is doing SOMEthing" not to our liking.  It is "equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing" such as develop a sensor that competes with Sony in ways that matter to some of us, but CLEARLY not you.  ::)

As I've pointed out before, Canon has been behind in low ISO DR for ~6 years, meaning multiple product development cycles.
And we are so dearly grateful for your sacrifice!  You are in the medical field and you are an expert on sensor development.  You have such a bevy of skills!    ;)

If their market research showed that particular feature to be something likely to have a significant impact on sales (i.e., a positive ROI), why would they not have addressed it?
You are being argumentative, yet again, and now you are opining on product marketing.  It's amazing the skills that you feel that you have developed in your photography pursuits!   :o   The flipside to that argument is why have other companies delivered on dynamic range in their sensor development?  Since you are the product marketing genius, perhaps you can inspire us with your dazzling intellect on the matter.

I'd argue that's because the 'we' to which you refer, in the case of those wanting more low ISO DR, simply doesn't represent a big enough group.  Obviously, the 'we' wanting more MP was sufficiently numerous for Canon to devote R&D resources to address their want, and thus they delivered the world's highest resolution FF dSLR.
Well, the Sony rumor also includes the boast that the Sony sensor will be much better than Canon's 50 MP FF sensor.  Presumably they are relying on the 7D2 performance to assert such a claim.  If they deliver on the claim, obviously "the 'we' wanting more MP [and DR] was sufficiently numerous for [Sony] to devote R&D resources to address their want, and thus they delivered the world's highest resolution FF dSLR [with spectacular DR]."  I could not have said it better!    ::)

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neuroanatomist

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It is "equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing" such as develop a sensor that competes with Sony in ways that matter to some of us, but CLEARLY not you.

Where is your evidence that Canon cannot develop a sensor with relatively greater low ISO DR?  I trust you realize that cannot and chooses not to are two very different things.


The flipside to that argument is why have other companies delivered on dynamic range in their sensor development?

Have those other companies surpassed Canon in dSLR market share?  If not, how important has 'delivering on DR' been to them? 


Well, the Sony rumor also includes the boast that the Sony sensor will be much better than Canon's 50 MP FF sensor. 

Where are the samples from the preproduction camera?  What's the release date?  Do you often boast about images you have captured with a rumor?   ::)
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sanj

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It is "equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing" such as develop a sensor that competes with Sony in ways that matter to some of us, but CLEARLY not you.

Where is your evidence that Canon cannot develop a sensor with relatively greater low ISO DR?  I trust you realize that cannot and chooses not to are two very different things.


The flipside to that argument is why have other companies delivered on dynamic range in their sensor development?

Have those other companies surpassed Canon in dSLR market share?  If not, how important has 'delivering on DR' been to them? 


Well, the Sony rumor also includes the boast that the Sony sensor will be much better than Canon's 50 MP FF sensor. 

Where are the samples from the preproduction camera?  What's the release date?  Do you often boast about images you have captured with a rumor?   ::)

You seriously think that them improving technology for betterment of photography and ease of photography is a bad thing? Is it all only about sales for you? I find this mentality so regressive.

privatebydesign

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It is "equally obvious that they cannot do EVERYthing" such as develop a sensor that competes with Sony in ways that matter to some of us, but CLEARLY not you.

Where is your evidence that Canon cannot develop a sensor with relatively greater low ISO DR?  I trust you realize that cannot and chooses not to are two very different things.


The flipside to that argument is why have other companies delivered on dynamic range in their sensor development?

Have those other companies surpassed Canon in dSLR market share?  If not, how important has 'delivering on DR' been to them? 


Well, the Sony rumor also includes the boast that the Sony sensor will be much better than Canon's 50 MP FF sensor. 

Where are the samples from the preproduction camera?  What's the release date?  Do you often boast about images you have captured with a rumor?   ::)

You seriously think that them improving technology for betterment of photography and ease of photography is a bad thing? Is it all only about sales for you? I find this mentality so regressive.

No, that isn't what he is saying at all. What he is saying is some amongst us consider DR as this massive imperative, Canon clearly don't and they have the market research and sales to confirm they have been better putting that R&D budget into new lenses and a choice of new high MP bodies with the same DR.

The reference to sales is merely conclusive evidence that those that consider DR imperative are in the vast minority. Canon have done the bean counting and they think the cost return is going to be better with the same DR sensors and more MP and a wonderful selection of new lenses across the board in value and capabilities.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Eldar

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What! 5Dsx cameras don't have interchangeable screens? To me that is a no-brainer on any full frame DSLR. The lowly 6D has interchangeable screens, which is good, because I like to use fast MF lenses.

Is that why nobody bought the 5DIII?   :P
I dis not even check, because the thought of not having it never crossed my mind. As Nancy says, it's a no-brainer ...
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Sporgon

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What! 5Dsx cameras don't have interchangeable screens? To me that is a no-brainer on any full frame DSLR. The lowly 6D has interchangeable screens, which is good, because I like to use fast MF lenses.

Is that why nobody bought the 5DIII?   :P
I dis not even check, because the thought of not having it never crossed my mind. As Nancy says, it's a no-brainer ...

It's a no brainier for the likes of us, I agree. But is it for the bigger picture ? I guess time will tell: if enough people have complained about it maybe Canon will revert back to it for the 5DIV. Apart from anything else it's much easier to clean ! 

neuroanatomist

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Have those other companies surpassed Canon in dSLR market share?  If not, how important has 'delivering on DR' been to them? 
You seriously think that them improving technology for betterment of photography and ease of photography is a bad thing? Is it all only about sales for you? I find this mentality so regressive.

Good job shooting the messenger.  A regressive mentality is ignoring basic facts of reality.  Canon, Sony, Nikon, these are businesses, not philanthropic organizations.  Is anyone really so naïve as to think they make R&D investmentment decisions for the 'betterment of photography' or to help photographers?  Grow up, Pollyanna.  They do it for profit.  Do you seriously think they sponsor sporting events because they just really love football and baseball?   ::)

Personally, I don't care how many cameras Canon or Sony sell.  But you can bet your ass that Canon and Sony care.  If you want to understand a decision, the best place to start is the motivation of the decision makers.  So...why hasn't Canon expended resources to improve low ISO DR?  Because they want photographers to suffer?   ::)  Most likely because their research has shown it won't significantly help them sell more cameras.  Why has Sony expended resources to do so?  Most likely because they think it will help them sell more cameras...perhaps precisely because Canon has chosen not to invest in that area.
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fragilesi

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I've got to stick up for Neuro here . . . as ever on Internet fora opinions have become polarised to no-one's advantage.

But look back, it started with a cheap dig at Canon, Neuro responded in not unreasonable fashion but is still escalated somehow.

I think a reasonable summary is that Canon, Nikon and Sony produce DSLR systems. NONE OF THEM IS PERFECT and each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Cameras are used by different people in different ways so it's damn obvious that people will be drawn to the system that best suits them.  AND there will ALWAYS be things about the other systems that look more attractive - whether they actually are is another matter of course but the differences will always be there.  Sorry, that's just life.

So Eldar saying that we should all group together because they aren't listening to "us" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Canon DID listen to me, they are producing what I want.  Sure an extra couple of stops of low ISO DR would be nice as well and I don't think anyone is denying that but AF for example is a lot higher on my list.  It really is.  Anti flicker, I sooooo wish I could afford to upgrade for that, it would do a lot more for me.

No one system is going to have it all.  Sony invested in sensor tech, prioritised it.  Canon recently went for High MP bodies, anti-flicker, a fantastic set of lenses and so on.   There is only so much R&D budget.

It's that simple.




Eldar

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There are lots of functionality in a camera. But the value of that functionality varies from photographer to photographer, depending on what you are shooting. But the core of any camera is what you are able to record from the sensor. Colour, contrast, resolution, dynamic range, noise, banding ... and all the rest of it.

When we are discussing personal preferences, it may be ergonomics, AF system, fps, weight, size, menu systems, customisability, (anti flickr mode) etc. etc. But at the core of all cameras are still the qualities listed above, colour, contrast, resolution, dynamic range, noise, banding ... and all the rest of it.

So I fully agree that there are major differences between the available cameras out there, when it comes to user-friendliness, flexibility, speed, AF-systems and modes etc. And we all have our preferences. But, even with the differences between action photographers and landscape photographers in mind, every single photographer will benefit from the best possible color , contrast, resolution, dynamic range, noise, banding ... and all the rest of it. Yes, to produce a best in class high ISO camera, you must compromise, compared to a best in class low ISO camera. But as good as possible color , contrast, resolution, dynamic range, noise, banding ... and all the rest of it, will benefit any photographer, whatever niche he or she is in. So those of us on this forum wanting improved DR and noise performance from Canon sensors are only saying what everyone should be saying. We are no minority. This WE should include every single one of you. Some may say it is very important, some may say it is not. But everyone would benefit from it.

Ask yourself; If you could choose between two equal cameras with 5DIII ergonomics. One had 36MP resolution, 14,8 stop DR and clean shadows. The other had 50MP, 12 stop DR and 5DIII shadow noise? It would take me less than a second to decide.

A lot of us are still using Canon cameras, because we have a fortune locked up in Canon and Canon compatible lenses. If I could have used them on a D810, I would have had one a long time ago. Quite a few has added a Sony to get access to that sensor. I have not, because I hated pretty much everything about that body, except the sensor. So to explain the wisdom of Canon´s strategy by referring to sales figures, does not work with me. There is either an arrogance to how they behave or it is a lack of capability. Both are bad. The 5DS is in my view a camera that should never have been in Canon´s roadmap (unless it proves to be a lot more potent than the initial information indicates). But I suspect that was what they were capable of.

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