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Author Topic: 5d or 1ds  (Read 14912 times)

briansquibb

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 12:25:49 PM »

Hmmm, interesting. Pity I don't like the photos out of the 7d, otherwise it would be a great choice. To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice. I actually DON'T like the extra reach you get with crop bodies. I suppose it's what I deserve for shooting film :P

Thanks for your suggestion,
Thomas.

+1 ... and I thought I was alone with this opinion

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 12:25:49 PM »

pwp

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 01:55:17 AM »
I shot with a 1Ds (original) and actually replaced it with a 5D classic which I still own and use for it's unique "look" for some portrait jobs.

The 1Ds has some of the obvious 1-series advantages such as 45 AF points, weather sealing, buffer etc but the 5D files left the 1Ds for dead in my opinion.

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KitFireburn

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 03:18:22 AM »
Given your circumstances, i say go for the 5D, i used one that my friend owned at one point and i couldn't put it down.

I think you'll develop a strong bond with it the second you see the photos it produces. Good luck.

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 03:49:34 AM »

Hmmm, interesting. Pity I don't like the photos out of the 7d, otherwise it would be a great choice. To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice. I actually DON'T like the extra reach you get with crop bodies. I suppose it's what I deserve for shooting film :P

Thanks for your suggestion,
Thomas.

+1 ... and I thought I was alone with this opinion

+2 ... you're not even close to the only one.

As long as a FF has sufficient resolution to crop to the FOV you desire in the event you run out of focal length, there is precisely ZERO benefit to a crop body.  The "extra reach" is an illusion.  It is a net detriment, not a benefit.  There is no sane argument to the contrary.

There used to be technological reasons why a crop had some desirable performance characteristics, i.e. sensor readout speed; hence the the development of APS-H.  But the actual sensor size wasn't one of the desirable characteristics, merely a compromise that had to be made.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 09:45:46 AM »
To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice.

How does APS-H give you better lens choice?  For that matter, how does FF give you better lens choice?  Granted, they both give you shallower DoF than APS-C for a given aperture, but would you not want to shoot wider than 18mm (FF equivalent) on APS-H with a rectilinear lens (having good IQ, and I'm not counting the Sigma 12-24 in that category)?

As long as a FF has sufficient resolution to crop to the FOV you desire in the event you run out of focal length, there is precisely ZERO benefit to a crop body.  The "extra reach" is an illusion.  It is a net detriment, not a benefit.  There is no sane argument to the contrary.

Ahhh...but compared to the final cropped size of some of my 7D images, cropping the 1D X to the same FoV would leave me with ~3.5 MP.  Having more pixels on target is a benefit when you don't have sufficient focal length.  But as you state, otherwise, there's no benefit to a crop factor (other than decreased cost - but I would think that lower cost is defenitely a sane argument for the benefit of APS-C, if one doesn't have >$2K to spend on a FF body...).
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motorhead

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 10:47:43 AM »
Unlike at least one post that claims the 5D2 files are better than the 1Ds3. In my research before buying my 5D2 recently I came across a review that claimed that the 1Ds3 used both a better sensor AND a better processor and the result was a far better image.

I have no way to judge that comment, but I would assume that Canons top pro body would (and should) out perform the "pro-am" 5D2.

The only reason I went with the 5D2 was that it was available now, came with a full warranty and the used 1D3 I was interested in had been well used and showed it.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 11:41:23 AM »
Unlike at least one post that claims the 5D2 files are better than the 1Ds3. In my research before buying my 5D2 recently I came across a review that claimed that the 1Ds3 used both a better sensor AND a better processor and the result was a far better image.

DxOMark ranks the 1DsIII slightly higher than the 5DII - the 1DsIII is a little better on DR and color depth, while the 5DII is a little better for ISO noise.  Frankly, none of those differences are meaningful. 

Canon's 5DII white paper claims the sensor is better than the 1DsIII: "The advanced single-plate CMOS sensor in the EOS 5D Mark II achieves the highest performance of any sensor in the Canon DSLR lineup. It shares many traits with the CMOS sensor found in the flagship EOS-1Ds Mark III, including its 36mm x 24mm (35mm format) size, approximately 21.1 effective megapixels with 6.4μm pixel pitch, a 4-channel data readout, and low-pass filter design. However, this second-generation sensor offers increased sensitivity and improved noise reduction circuitry that enables standard ISO’s ranging from 100 to 6400 and expanded ISO ranges from 50 to 25,600."

So, I wouldn't believe the review that stated the images from the 1DsIII are 'far better' than those from the 5DII - there's probably no significant IQ difference in real-world shots.  As for the better processor, the 1DsIII uses dual-Digic3, while the 5DII uses a single Digic4. 

I would assume that Canons top pro body would (and should) out perform the "pro-am" 5D2.

The 1DsIII certainly does outperform the 5DII.  There's more to making an image than the sensor - even though the two cameras use essentially the same sensor, the 1DsIII's better AF and better metering will often mean better pictures, the more robust build means being able to take those pictures in harsher conditions and with double the shutter activations, there's better VF mag and coverage, higher flash sync speed, more customization, etc., in other words, the 1DsIII is a far better camera...as it should be. 

But...the fact that the IQ is essentially the same means that many were willing to dispense with the pro features/build of the 1DsIII and get the 5DII instead...or even get two of them and still save money.  I don't think Canon will repeat that scenario for the 1D X and 5DIII, but we'll see...
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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 11:41:23 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »

 But as you state, otherwise, there's no benefit to a crop factor (other than decreased cost - but I would think that lower cost is defenitely a sane argument for the benefit of APS-C, if one doesn't have >$2K to spend on a FF body...).

The debate is pretty much a parallel one to the 1Ds3 vs 5DII.

It is a question of choice of the features that the buyer wants most. If cheap is key then a crop is fine, if shallow DOF is needed then FF is needed, if reach is needed more than extreme width then a 1.3 crop is fine and so on. It is all about knowing the customers and their requirements

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 12:40:48 PM »
After carful consideration of both, I think you need a 60D. But if you must go with one of the 2, I'd go 5D.

bobthebrick

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 04:43:33 PM »
To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice.

How does APS-H give you better lens choice?  For that matter, how does FF give you better lens choice?  Granted, they both give you shallower DoF than APS-C for a given aperture, but would you not want to shoot wider than 18mm (FF equivalent) on APS-H with a rectilinear lens (having good IQ, and I'm not counting the Sigma 12-24 in that category)?

As long as a FF has sufficient resolution to crop to the FOV you desire in the event you run out of focal length, there is precisely ZERO benefit to a crop body.  The "extra reach" is an illusion.  It is a net detriment, not a benefit.  There is no sane argument to the contrary.

Ahhh...but compared to the final cropped size of some of my 7D images, cropping the 1D X to the same FoV would leave me with ~3.5 MP.  Having more pixels on target is a benefit when you don't have sufficient focal length.  But as you state, otherwise, there's no benefit to a crop factor (other than decreased cost - but I would think that lower cost is defenitely a sane argument for the benefit of APS-C, if one doesn't have >$2K to spend on a FF body...).

It gives me better lens choices because my wide lens are actually wide, I don't have to worry about cropfactor, because while you can zoom in and crop an image, sadly as of yet you can't zoom out and crop :P That's the issue with the 60d as well, but if it had a larger sensor, I agree, the specs would be perfect for my needs.

Anyway, I bought a 5d a few days ago, waiting anxiously for it to arrive in the next week or so. Thankyou everyone for your advice, it made my mind a bit clearer and convinced me I wasn't going crazy with trying to get a 5d when I should be going for the 1ds.

Thankyou again,
Thomas :)


neuroanatomist

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 05:10:01 PM »
It gives me better lens choices because my wide lens are actually wide, I don't have to worry about cropfactor, because while you can zoom in and crop an image, sadly as of yet you can't zoom out and crop :P That's the issue with the 60d as well, but if it had a larger sensor...

Ahhh...I didn't realize you meant (presumably) your lenses, i.e. lenses you currently own - 'lens selection', to me, implied selecting from the lenses that were available in general. The EF-S 10-22mm is certainly wide on APS-C, equivalent to 16-35mm on FF, and the Sigma 8-16mm has IQ as good as the Canon 10-22mm, with a FF equivalent of 13-26mm. You don't think that's wide?  Plus, the 10-22mm on APS-C has a lot less barrel distortion than the 16-35 or 17-40 on FF.  That's the problem with APS-H cameras - crop sensor but cannot use EF-S lenses.

Point is, there are certainly good ultra wide angle options for APS-C cameras, even if you don't have any of those lenses, so saying a 1.6x crop does not offer good wide angle lens choices makes no sense to me.

Regardless, congrats on your purchase and enjoy your new camera!
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briansquibb

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 06:22:23 PM »
Point is, there are certainly good ultra wide angle options for APS-C cameras, even if you don't have any of those lenses, so saying a 1.6x crop does not offer good wide angle lens choices makes no sense to me.

+1 The 1.6 have not only the EF lens but also the EF-S lens to choose from so they must have a better choice.

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 07:36:06 PM »

Hmmm, interesting. Pity I don't like the photos out of the 7d, otherwise it would be a great choice. To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice. I actually DON'T like the extra reach you get with crop bodies. I suppose it's what I deserve for shooting film :P

Thanks for your suggestion,
Thomas.

+1 ... and I thought I was alone with this opinion

+2 ... you're not even close to the only one.

For those who haven't used these cameras, go check out the DP Review and Imaging Resource studio scenes and samples. 7D shots look as good as 5D shots out of camera across the board, except of course for having more fine detail.

If sports is a requirement it's just foolish to overlook the 7D. And if sports is not a requirement, it's foolish to overlook the 60D which will produce larger landscape prints with more fine detail than a 5D, and do so with cheaper glass on the UWA end. Both just edge out the 5D at high ISO (less color blotching). The 5D is close, but those who worship 36x24mm have the wrong sensor as the winner.

BTW, the 1Ds isn't even an option if low light is a requirement. It is worse at ISO 1250, its max ISO, then the 60D / 7D or 5D at ISO 3200! The technology is just too old there for it to be competitive.

Quote
As long as a FF has sufficient resolution to crop to the FOV you desire in the event you run out of focal length, there is precisely ZERO benefit to a crop body.

But 12 MP FF doesn't have sufficient resolution unless you're only making small prints. Right out of the gate the 5D is down to 4.8 MP at APS-C crop. There's no contest in the detail or sharpness between a 5D 4.8 MP crop and a 7D 18 MP file. One will just stretch to 11x14, the other will make a fine 20x30. If you have to crop any more you're done with the 5D. And that's assuming the 5D held focus.

Quote
The "extra reach" is an illusion.  It is a net detriment, not a benefit.  There is no sane argument to the contrary.

I've got 9 MP crop, tack sharp, detailed and noise free 20" surfing prints off the 7D that would be 4x6 prints at best had I been using a 5D and cropping to match magnification. Evening the odds would only require a $10,000 500L lens.

Even at the wide end there can be benefits to crop. When I tested them I couldn't see the difference in print between a 5D2 + 16-35L II and a 7D + Tokina 11-16 at 24" print size, but the Tokina lens was $900 cheaper. And against the price competitive 17-40L (which I own) it's no contest: the crop combo yields higher IQ.

All things being equal a FF sensor has the performance advantage in non focal length limited scenarios. But all things are rarely equal.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:43:50 AM by neuroanatomist »

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 07:36:06 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 08:02:05 PM »
All things being equal a FF sensor has the performance advantage in non focal length limited scenarios. But all things are rarely equal.

Well, when you go comparing the 7D with 18 MP to the much older 5D with 12 MP, they're sure as heck not equal. But, if you compare a 7D to a 5DII cropped to the APS-C FoV, you'll find that the IQ is pretty much a wash (unaltered, the 7D wins for sharpness, the 5DII cropped wins for noise, and since those are inversely related in processing, they can be equalized either way).  It's just that if you have to crop even more, the 5DII resolution falls below the threshold of usability much sooner.
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briansquibb

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 04:05:46 AM »

Hmmm, interesting. Pity I don't like the photos out of the 7d, otherwise it would be a great choice. To me though, having FF or APS-H at the very least is important for low light use and lens choice. I actually DON'T like the extra reach you get with crop bodies. I suppose it's what I deserve for shooting film :P

Thanks for your suggestion,
Thomas.

+1 ... and I thought I was alone with this opinion

+2 ... you're not even close to the only one.


I hate to say this but my opinion is founded on hands on experience. I made the mistake of basing my purchases of two 7D's on such reviews, however to me the quality of the image from the 7D's is not as good as the image I am getting from the 5DII so I bought a 1D4 as my walkabout camera - the perfect foil to the 5DII - in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:43:28 AM by neuroanatomist »

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Re: 5d or 1ds
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 04:05:46 AM »