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Author Topic: The Canon 5D line and AF...  (Read 10401 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 02:53:17 PM »
I respect Neuro's views in the analogy of people expecting wine on a beer budget, however it must also be considered that Canon cripples functionality in some models to protect other models.... it is this spread that at least I refer to where Canon can offer more for the same price.

+1 on that.  Of course they do - they have to, from a marketing standpoint (do I beat that horse too hard?). 

Consider - the 1Ds series and 5 series are both FF cameras.  For almost any component, once it's been developed for a 1Ds-line body, that component could be dropped into a 5-series body design with little or no additional R&D effort, and in many cases, such as the AF sensor and microlens arrangement, probably almost no additional production cost that would need to be passed along in the final price.  They could have taken the 1DsII AF system and used it in the 5DII pretty easily, I would think. 

Consider firmware - I would think that firmware for a new camera would not be developed from scratch, but rather modified from the predecessor - if that's the case, they had to exert resources to remove AFMA from the 50D's firmware when updating it for the 60D. 

So...Canon can offer more for the same price - whether or not they actually do depends on their estimate of how particular features will affect sales, both against their other models and against other manufacturers.
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 02:53:17 PM »

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 02:59:25 PM »
For such individuals, wouldn't just buying a 1D IV or a 1D X give them everything they need in a single package...and one that is likely to have a much longer lifespan, for $6000-$6800?

Except for a backup camera,  ;)  which IMHO is not a minor consideration for most shooting ops outside of landscape and chasing the kids around the house.

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 03:36:27 PM »
Neuro made the point that 5D owners were chomping at the bit to upgrade to the 5D2 because...

Come on, let's be honest here - the 5D2 was as much a game changer as the 5D upon its release.
21mp FF - same sensor size as a £5k+ 1Ds3. HD Video. A usable 6400 ISO (remember, at this point the D3 was still fresh out the stable - D3s hadn't even been thought of as a rumour let alone released) - extending to 25k (which was the D3's range...).

As said, 3 years down the line, and in all fairness no one has still managed to match it.

So, to say that the 5D2 replacement has to be a game changer is not exactly an unfair expectation.
No, we do not expect 32mp, we do not expect 408k ISO, nor do we expect 14 fps and 1Dx focusing.

But their are a lot of areas that require small improvements that would make you think, 'sod it, i've had enough i'm trading up to a 5D3 cos i want this issue fixed and it is in the 5D3'

Improved AF would help, that battery grip with duplicated joystick would also be another factor for those of us who have our 5D2's bolted to one. Just examples - not the definitive list or argument.

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 03:49:43 PM »
I'm going to be kind of disappointed when the 5DIII comes out and I have to go back to threads that endlessly debate megapixels, sensor size, and ISO noise. :)

Really though, I Keep thinking that all Canon really needs to do with the next 5D to make still photographers happy is put the 7D autofocus system in it and call it good. Oh...and put out a new battery grip that has a wheel on it. Which means they need to change the specs enough so that the old grip won't work with the new model and maybe you need new batteries as well. (Yes, they may throw in a few other bells and whistles, but no "game changers")

I can hold firmly to this position until the 5DIII is announced and I'm proven wrong. But, here is my logic:

  • Hardly anyone complains about anything except the autofocus;
  • There has to be enough room between the 5DIII and the 1Dx to justify the cost differential;
  • Ultra-high ISO speeds are a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users;
  • Bomb-proof construction and weather-sealing is a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users.

If Canon is truly interested in moving APS-C customers up to full frame, this offers an affordable path, since the price can be kept at or close to the 5DII's price.

I still think that any big changes in the 5DIII will be concentrated in the video realm. I think Canon sees video as the growth market. (Their recent product releases indicate that). I firmly believe Canon had no idea how popular the 5DII would be for video. They are now watching the massive growth in internet and independent video and comparing that to the anemic growth in DSLR sales. They know that they currently own the DSLR video market and want to protect that market. (Face it guys: we still DSLR photographers are dinosaurs)

So, my logic: give the still photographers the minimum that they want: better autofocus; and give videographers more than they hoped for.


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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 03:52:25 PM »
This is a frustrating conversation to me, this "wine on a beer budget" analogy, because the analogy limps badly.  As others have correctly pointed out, many features are not missing because of cost but because of positioning.  Auto-ISO in manual mode, for example, is not missing because of cost.

I understand the importance of positioning and its relevance to profitability.  But taken to the extreme it becomes the opposite of competing for a customer's business.  It becomes a process of holding back as much value as possible in order to parcel it out in small portions at the customer's expense.  Canon, more than any other camera company, seems to think it has enough momentum and market share to focus on maximizing profitability rather than customer satisfaction.  Maybe they are right in the short term but I think this will cost them in the long term.  I believe Sony, in particular, has the resources to eventually make them pay for this approach.

And this "the 5D was never intended for sports" argument is B.S.  I shoot landscapes and wildlife but I'd also like to occasionally shoot my son's football games.  It is NOT too much to expect a $2700 camera body to do both.  When cheaper Canon DSLR's offer demonstrably superior AF systems, it is positioning rather than cost that is driving design.  Nikon is certainly able to put their pro-AF system in a body at a 5DII price. 

But let's say price is no object.  I should just buy a 1DX, right?  No, I don't want to hike 10 miles into the backcountry with a cinder block in my pack.  It's not just a question of wanting wine on a beer budget.  It's about wanting the right tool for the job.


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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
For such individuals, wouldn't just buying a 1D IV or a 1D X give them everything they need in a single package...and one that is likely to have a much longer lifespan, for $6000-$6800?

Except for a backup camera,  ;)  which IMHO is not a minor consideration for most shooting ops outside of landscape and chasing the kids around the house.

Certainly can't disagree on that point, and its an excellent point. :)

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 04:04:17 PM »
This is a frustrating conversation to me, this "wine on a beer budget" analogy, because the analogy limps badly.  As others have correctly pointed out, many features are not missing because of cost but because of positioning.  Auto-ISO in manual mode, for example, is not missing because of cost.

I understand the importance of positioning and its relevance to profitability.  But taken to the extreme it becomes the opposite of competing for a customer's business.  It becomes a process of holding back as much value as possible in order to parcel it out in small portions at the customer's expense.  Canon, more than any other camera company, seems to think it has enough momentum and market share to focus on maximizing profitability rather than customer satisfaction.  Maybe they are right in the short term but I think this will cost them in the long term.  I believe Sony, in particular, has the resources to eventually make them pay for this approach.

And this "the 5D was never intended for sports" argument is B.S.  I shoot landscapes and wildlife but I'd also like to occasionally shoot my son's football games.  It is NOT too much to expect a $2700 camera body to do both.  When cheaper Canon DSLR's offer demonstrably superior AF systems, it is positioning rather than cost that is driving design.  Nikon is certainly able to put their pro-AF system in a body at a 5DII price. 

But let's say price is no object.  I should just buy a 1DX, right?  No, I don't want to hike 10 miles into the backcountry with a cinder block in my pack.  It's not just a question of wanting wine on a beer budget.  It's about wanting the right tool for the job.

+1  well actually +100.  For the price bracket, it needs to at least be able to keep up with my 4 year old... I'm not asking for it to keep up with pro athletes running at me in my direction.  When a newly married coupld is slow dancing on their first dance and the AF locks on the grooms ear and not the eye... stuff like this needs to be fixed.  I'm not asking for them to reinvent the wheel... Just give me 7d af, levels, custom button programming and maybe flash command or 7d sealing... the rest I'm willing to compromise to give the 1d flagship status.
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 04:04:17 PM »

jrista

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 04:08:31 PM »
I'm going to be kind of disappointed when the 5DIII comes out and I have to go back to threads that endlessly debate megapixels, sensor size, and ISO noise. :)

Really though, I Keep thinking that all Canon really needs to do with the next 5D to make still photographers happy is put the 7D autofocus system in it and call it good. Oh...and put out a new battery grip that has a wheel on it. Which means they need to change the specs enough so that the old grip won't work with the new model and maybe you need new batteries as well. (Yes, they may throw in a few other bells and whistles, but no "game changers")

I can hold firmly to this position until the 5DIII is announced and I'm proven wrong. But, here is my logic:

  • Hardly anyone complains about anything except the autofocus;
  • There has to be enough room between the 5DIII and the 1Dx to justify the cost differential;
  • Ultra-high ISO speeds are a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users;
  • Bomb-proof construction and weather-sealing is a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users.

If Canon is truly interested in moving APS-C customers up to full frame, this offers an affordable path, since the price can be kept at or close to the 5DII's price.

I still think that any big changes in the 5DIII will be concentrated in the video realm. I think Canon sees video as the growth market. (Their recent product releases indicate that). I firmly believe Canon had no idea how popular the 5DII would be for video. They are now watching the massive growth in internet and independent video and comparing that to the anemic growth in DSLR sales. They know that they currently own the DSLR video market and want to protect that market. (Face it guys: we still DSLR photographers are dinosaurs)

So, my logic: give the still photographers the minimum that they want: better autofocus; and give videographers more than they hoped for.

Good arguments, and I agree that the AF is probably the only thing that has kept me from just biting the bullet buying a 5D II. It really is bottom of the barrel. I'm still curious why it has to be 7D AF though. Is there not some kind of happy medium that would satisfy the "pro grade", without also being top end? I mean, 19 CROSS-TYPE AF points, with all the zone and expansion selections, is fairly expensive...not as expensive as 40, but expensive nonetheless. How would a more advanced AF system like that affect the cost of a 5D III? I am really hoping for a $2800 price tag...I don't want to have to spend $3200 or $3500 for all the extra features like high end AF that I already have on my 7D (which, coincidentally, is better for the action stuff anyway given its cropped sensor and greater "reach".)

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 04:27:57 PM »
Quote
I'm still curious why it has to be 7D AF though.

Candidly, I'm just using the 7D autofocus as shorthand for any improved system. I only referenced the 7D system because it's already developed and would probably be cheap to graft onto a 5D. Same could be said for the 1D autofocus I imagine. Or, it could be some hybrid.
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 04:28:35 PM »
I'm going to be kind of disappointed when the 5DIII comes out and I have to go back to threads that endlessly debate megapixels, sensor size, and ISO noise. :)

Really though, I Keep thinking that all Canon really needs to do with the next 5D to make still photographers happy is put the 7D autofocus system in it and call it good. Oh...and put out a new battery grip that has a wheel on it. Which means they need to change the specs enough so that the old grip won't work with the new model and maybe you need new batteries as well. (Yes, they may throw in a few other bells and whistles, but no "game changers")

I can hold firmly to this position until the 5DIII is announced and I'm proven wrong. But, here is my logic:

  • Hardly anyone complains about anything except the autofocus;
  • There has to be enough room between the 5DIII and the 1Dx to justify the cost differential;
  • Ultra-high ISO speeds are a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users;
  • Bomb-proof construction and weather-sealing is a necessity for the 1Dx market, but an option for most 5DIII users.

If Canon is truly interested in moving APS-C customers up to full frame, this offers an affordable path, since the price can be kept at or close to the 5DII's price.

I still think that any big changes in the 5DIII will be concentrated in the video realm. I think Canon sees video as the growth market. (Their recent product releases indicate that). I firmly believe Canon had no idea how popular the 5DII would be for video. They are now watching the massive growth in internet and independent video and comparing that to the anemic growth in DSLR sales. They know that they currently own the DSLR video market and want to protect that market. (Face it guys: we still DSLR photographers are dinosaurs)

So, my logic: give the still photographers the minimum that they want: better autofocus; and give videographers more than they hoped for.

Good arguments, and I agree that the AF is probably the only thing that has kept me from just biting the bullet buying a 5D II. It really is bottom of the barrel. I'm still curious why it has to be 7D AF though. Is there not some kind of happy medium that would satisfy the "pro grade", without also being top end? I mean, 19 CROSS-TYPE AF points, with all the zone and expansion selections, is fairly expensive...not as expensive as 40, but expensive nonetheless. How would a more advanced AF system like that affect the cost of a 5D III? I am really hoping for a $2800 price tag...I don't want to have to spend $3200 or $3500 for all the extra features like high end AF that I already have on my 7D (which, coincidentally, is better for the action stuff anyway given its cropped sensor and greater "reach".)

That's the problem... for them to reinvent a new AF such as 13 or whatever would be a whole new R&D and possibly new costs for doing such... 7D, all they need it to do is work for a FF sensor and bobs your uncle, it's good to go.  Plus, those who are prior 7D users wont want to go from a 19 point AF to 13 let alone 9.  I've made the jump/drop depending on how you look at it and it's a big jump/drop.  Thank god I still have my 7d, but i'm holding on to that sucker until the 5d produces a product where I dont need the 7d any more. 
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 04:30:18 PM »
I believe Sony, in particular, has the resources to eventually make them pay for this approach.
  It is NOT too much to expect a $2700 camera body to do both.  When cheaper Canon DSLR's offer demonstrably superior AF systems, it is positioning rather than cost that is driving design. 

+1: I have said it before, once Sony can release good lenses at reasonable prices, there will be a shift. I hope Canon is proactive about this.
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »
And this "the 5D was never intended for sports" argument is B.S.

I very much beg to differ! I think its been clear since the 5D that Canon is purposely positioning the 5D line to fill other markets, and they are intentionally protecting the market segment for their 1D line. Its not surprising, its expected, and responsible for the company to do that as well. The advanced AF features of the 1D line are incredibly expensive to design, develop, and manufacture. A single high precision diagonal cross-type sensor is no simple feat, and when there are 20, 40, or 60 of them in a system, that definitely increases cost. They need at least one market segment to help fund those advanced features, and the market segment that most needs them is the logical choice.

So yes, I strongly believe that the 5D was NEVER intended for sports. If it was, it would either be much more expensive, or the 1D sales would have disappeared.

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 05:22:28 PM »
And this "the 5D was never intended for sports" argument is B.S.

I very much beg to differ! I think its been clear since the 5D that Canon is purposely positioning the 5D line to fill other markets, and they are intentionally protecting the market segment for their 1D line. Its not surprising, its expected, and responsible for the company to do that as well. The advanced AF features of the 1D line are incredibly expensive to design, develop, and manufacture. A single high precision diagonal cross-type sensor is no simple feat, and when there are 20, 40, or 60 of them in a system, that definitely increases cost. They need at least one market segment to help fund those advanced features, and the market segment that most needs them is the logical choice.

So yes, I strongly believe that the 5D was NEVER intended for sports. If it was, it would either be much more expensive, or the 1D sales would have disappeared.

Just the way the D700 and D300 and D300s made the D3, D3s and D4 disappear right?  Different companies but just saying. 
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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 05:22:28 PM »

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 05:37:21 PM »
I would suggest the 1Ds3 AF system - already developed and has 45 points. Works very well

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 05:39:45 PM »
Hello all,

Even though product crippling is a common way of market segmentation in the markets where there are huge amount of customers and only a few suppliers, it takes only one of the suppliers to "do otherwise" to change the rule of the game. Now DSLR market has an investment piece in it due to the interchangeable lenses which would slow down any change (yes, there are other marketing terms that could be added in favour of the slow down but change it would be nevertheless).

I think we should also keep in mind that Sony and Panasonic have a lot of experience in this kind of markets - probably more than the other players in the DSLR market. I would not be surprised if they are just trying to close the tech gap in different areas and waiting for the "opportune moment" to take the lead. With that in mind, it would make sense for the usual DSLR players to play on the confidence of their customers, basicly, because that confidence might provide some additional time before people change brands and mean survival in the market ultimately.

Thus, I am hopeful about less crippled models in the near future. After all, didn't Canon state they would change the market segmentation this year?

Just my thoughts...

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Re: The Canon 5D line and AF...
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 05:39:45 PM »