June 18, 2018, 02:08:10 AM

Author Topic: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65  (Read 20914 times)

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2016, 07:07:47 PM »
Here's now one that I am reasonably happy with. Oberonia costeriana. Flowers are about 2 mm long.

First image is a visible light stereomicroscope z-stack.
Second is the UV version. No striking patterns, but that is information as well.
The last small methods adjustments include:
- RAW development in DxO.
- Removing color spots in AffinityPhoto. Note that DxO tifs required a new Gaussian Blur mask. Seems that the different RAW developer engines are putting color spots in slightly different places.
- Run AP cleaned-up tifs through DxO once more, so that Zerene will see them as a color file.
- Run stack through Zerene.

Now that methods have been sorted out, the real fun begins. Off to the greenhouse ...
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2016, 07:07:47 PM »

zim

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2016, 09:58:37 PM »
Hi Zeidora,
Fascinating stuff really enjoying reading thanks for posting. You should post the same on AP forum I'm sure it would be well received and it would help the devs as I guess there won't be too many beta testers around doing this kind of detailed work!

Regards

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2016, 12:20:38 AM »
Zim: thanks for the flowers  ;)  Posted over in AP forum and also on the Photomacrography forum.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

Maximilian

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1986
  • The dark side - I've been there
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2016, 04:54:17 AM »
Here's now one that I am reasonably happy with. Oberonia costeriana. Flowers are about 2 mm long ...
Really fascinating, Zeidora.

If I can recall it right, those UV patterns sometimes look even more geometrical.
I wonder if it's just because these flowers are just so small?
Or are geometrical patterns not so common?

Do you know more about that?
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

danski0224

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2016, 06:29:43 AM »
Have you considered trying the Coastal Optics UV IR VIS macro lens?

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2016, 11:03:18 AM »
Have you considered trying the Coastal Optics UV IR VIS macro lens?

The Coastal optics lenses cost >$5K each, while the Nikon EL 80/5.6 was $40. The UV Nikkor is about $10K, if you can find it anywhere. I have not seen any comparison on the optical performance at >>1:1 of the Coastal Optics or the UV Nikkor lenses to enlarger lenses. Given the rather experimental nature of my project, I am not quite ready to drop 5-10K on it.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

danski0224

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2016, 07:13:41 PM »
Maybe the Coastal lens can be rented in your area. Lensrentals has it in the USA.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2016, 07:13:41 PM »

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2016, 01:06:31 AM »
Danki: have you tried/compared the Coastal optics in for that purpose? Lens rental wants $226/week for it; I do live in the US. If I feel the need, I will buy it, but not quite there yet. Some 20 years ago I used the UV Nikkor at University, but for a UV fluorescence class assignment, which is a waste of that glass. Oh, the follies of youth.

Also, solved the Zerene file reading issue. Had to uncheck the "use external tif reader" in the Zerene Preferences. Rik L. kindly suggested that on the Photomicrography forum.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

danski0224

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2016, 04:40:00 PM »
Danki: have you tried/compared the Coastal optics in for that purpose? Lens rental wants $226/week for it; I do live in the US. If I feel the need, I will buy it, but not quite there yet. Some 20 years ago I used the UV Nikkor at University, but for a UV fluorescence class assignment, which is a waste of that glass. Oh, the follies of youth.

Also, solved the Zerene file reading issue. Had to uncheck the "use external tif reader" in the Zerene Preferences. Rik L. kindly suggested that on the Photomicrography forum.

Nope, I haven't tried that lens. I have a Sigma camera that will do full spectrum (no mods other than to remove the dust protector), but it's challenging to get Nikon lenses to work with it, much more difficult than the easy adapter for Canon. Right now there is only one Sigma DSLR camera with live view (and EVF), and that is the new sd series.

Having a Canon converted to full spectrum has crossed my mind, but it would have to have live view. An EVF would also be nice, which points at the latest M. I am near a point where I would consider renting one that has been converted to see if I like it.

$226 seems like a bargain rental to see what the Coastal lens can do.

I saw a UV Nikkor on eBay not too long ago for just under $10k. Haven't used one of those, either.

scyrene

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2031
    • My Flickr feed
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2016, 04:43:38 PM »
I'll concur: fascinating! I hope you continue to progress on this :)
Current equipment: 5Ds, 5D mark III, 50D, 24-105L, MP-E, 100L macro, 500L IS II; 1.4xIII + 2x III extenders; 600EX-RT.
Former equipment includes: 300D; EOS-M, EF-M 18-55, Samyang 14mm f/2.8, EF 35 f/2 IS, 70-200L f/4 non-IS and f/2.8L IS II, 85L II, Sigma 180 macro, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2016, 11:54:02 PM »
I have a Sigma camera that will do full spectrum (no mods other than to remove the dust protector), but it's challenging to get Nikon lenses to work with it, much more difficult than the easy adapter for Canon. Right now there is only one Sigma DSLR camera with live view (and EVF), and that is the new sd series.

Having a Canon converted to full spectrum has crossed my mind, but it would have to have live view. An EVF would also be nice, which points at the latest M. I am near a point where I would consider renting one that has been converted to see if I like it.

$226 seems like a bargain rental to see what the Coastal lens can do.

I saw a UV Nikkor on eBay not too long ago for just under $10k. Haven't used one of those, either.

There are M42 to Sigma adapters, eg. http://www.adorama.com/kasgpxs.html No problem putting a Nikkor EL on a Sigma. Live view/EVF, though, is almost a must for z-stacking. Allegedly, the EL80 has relatively little focus shift in UV, but screwing on a filter after you adjusted a >>1:1 is asking for trouble.

Re renting a Coastal lens, what I do is ongoing. If I get one, I buy it. Rental would just be paying $226 more in final purchase price.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2016, 12:00:27 AM »
Here's now one that I am reasonably happy with. Oberonia costeriana. Flowers are about 2 mm long ...
Really fascinating, Zeidora.

If I can recall it right, those UV patterns sometimes look even more geometrical.
I wonder if it's just because these flowers are just so small?
Or are geometrical patterns not so common?

Do you know more about that?

Sorry, missed that. The "why" question is the whole point here, and goes towards my botanical research. Photography is just a tool to investigate the biology of those flowers. Not sure whether there is a size correlation to UV patterns. Yellow sun flowers are famous for their concentric rings in UV. I've seen some lines on a yellow pleurothallid orchid (also relatively small flowers, also many flower on inflorescence). Current working hypothesis is that pollinator is not visually oriented, but rather attracted by odor. That could fit the limited observations on fungus gnats, and one species at least smelling like fungus (Oberonia fungum-olens).

To get a reasonably founded answer will take years. Research is painfully slow.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

Maximilian

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1986
  • The dark side - I've been there
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2016, 04:21:34 AM »
Here's now one that I am reasonably happy with. Oberonia costeriana. Flowers are about 2 mm long ...
Really fascinating, Zeidora.

If I can recall it right, those UV patterns sometimes look even more geometrical.
I wonder if it's just because these flowers are just so small?
Or are geometrical patterns not so common?

Do you know more about that?

Sorry, missed that. The "why" question is the whole point here, and goes towards my botanical research. Photography is just a tool to investigate the biology of those flowers. Not sure whether there is a size correlation to UV patterns. Yellow sun flowers are famous for their concentric rings in UV. I've seen some lines on a yellow pleurothallid orchid (also relatively small flowers, also many flower on inflorescence). Current working hypothesis is that pollinator is not visually oriented, but rather attracted by odor. That could fit the limited observations on fungus gnats, and one species at least smelling like fungus (Oberonia fungum-olens).

To get a reasonably founded answer will take years. Research is painfully slow.
Thanks for your reply.
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2016, 04:21:34 AM »

scyrene

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2031
    • My Flickr feed
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 03:45:02 PM »
I'm currently sort-of experimenting with this myself. I don't have a modified camera or proper filter, but I've found the results with an astro light pollution filter quite good even if I'm crossing streams, so to speak :) Here's my first direct comparison (few flowers here at this time of year!), it's the rear underwing of a swallow-tailed moth, Ourapteryx sambucaria, in visible vs filtered UV light. Focus stacks using the MP-E and Affinity Photo. Surprisingly few moth specimens I've tried show much in UV but this one was interesting enough to persist with.
Current equipment: 5Ds, 5D mark III, 50D, 24-105L, MP-E, 100L macro, 500L IS II; 1.4xIII + 2x III extenders; 600EX-RT.
Former equipment includes: 300D; EOS-M, EF-M 18-55, Samyang 14mm f/2.8, EF 35 f/2 IS, 70-200L f/4 non-IS and f/2.8L IS II, 85L II, Sigma 180 macro, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

Zeidora

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 637
Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 05:02:11 PM »
I'm currently sort-of experimenting with this myself. I don't have a modified camera or proper filter, but I've found the results with an astro light pollution filter quite good even if I'm crossing streams, so to speak :) Here's my first direct comparison (few flowers here at this time of year!), it's the rear underwing of a swallow-tailed moth, Ourapteryx sambucaria, in visible vs filtered UV light. Focus stacks using the MP-E and Affinity Photo. Surprisingly few moth specimens I've tried show much in UV but this one was interesting enough to persist with.

Neat. I think what you are doing is essentially a blue channel image. There are some faint yellow lines visible in the first image, and those are black in the second. Yellow = no blue, so those yellow areas will be dark. Compare the blue channel information from the first image with the second, and I would think they will be very similar.

To image UV light, you cannot get around a modified camera body.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Proof of concept: UV-reflectance stacking with MP-E 65
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 05:02:11 PM »