May 27, 2018, 12:02:48 PM

Author Topic: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming  (Read 93698 times)

Cory

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2017, 10:15:58 AM »
Sorry for the rookie question that's been asked a million times, but I'm thinking of simplifying/improving to a 6D (or II).  For general everything except for wildlife (because the almost no times I would be shooting wildlife I'd rent a lens) would a 6D offer improved image quality all things being equal?  I think my mix of lenses would be a 16-35 f/4, 40 STM and 135 f/2.
THANKS.
 :-*
6D, 16-35 4.0 IS, 40, 135 2.0
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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2017, 10:15:58 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2017, 10:35:34 AM »
Will it not be more sensible for Canon to stop the 6D line entirely and produce a  mirrorless full-frame camera?

Sensible?  For forum-dwelling folks who believe Canon is doomed without a FF mirrorless setup, sure.

But...

jeffa4444

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2017, 11:00:21 AM »
The Canon 5D MKIII was announced on 2nd March 2012, the 6D was announced on 17th September 2012 that's roughly 7.5 months apart.

The Canon 5D MKIV was announced 25th August 2017 if the same logic had applied that would have put the 6D MKII in the first weeks of April but instead were still waiting.

The 6D at Wex Photographic is £ 1,274 body only, the 5D MKIV is holding its launch price at £ 3,499 that's a whopping £ 2,225 difference is it really worth 2.8 times more for the 5D MKIV? Or looking at it another way Canon could be launching the 6D MKII at a significant price increase over the 6D. The 6D launched at £ 2,100 / $ 2,100 in 2012 so expect it to be north of that figure but it better well have improved in every area to justify the increase.

Canon you've a huge price gap at least in Europe / UK.  The 5D line expanded, the Rebel line expanded just below the 80D why not the 6D line, or maybe that's why we have a delay because its not one model but two!
Canon 5DS, Canon 6D, Canon 6D MKII,16-35 f4L IS USM, 17-40 f4L USM, 28 f2.8, 24-70mm f4L IS USM, 24-105 f4L IS USM, 100mm f2.8L IS USM, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II, 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM, 50 f1.8 STM, 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM II, 1.4EX III, EOS 760D, EF-S 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM & others.

amorse

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2017, 11:11:28 AM »
Will it not be more sensible for Canon to stop the 6D line entirely and produce a  mirrorless full-frame camera?

Not that I'd have as much background as some of the other posters here, but I always thought the 6D line was created to entice users of Canon's upper-end APS-C line to jump up to full frame and start buying full-frame L lenses.  It is what made me get on the 6D train, and for most people the 5Div is a pretty substantial financial jump from any of Canon's APS-C cameras.  The 6D sits in a nice price range to get people from an xxD to full frame.

Canon ditching the 6D in favour of a full frame mirrorless may not achieve the same objective unless it would continue to use EF lenses, and still be seen as an entry point to full frame.  At the end of the day, I am guessing that Canon wants to see its users move to cameras up market, and buying into the EF ecosystem since once a photographer has a lot of EF glass, it is more financially difficult the change systems.  The 6D seems to bridge that gap quite nicely right now.

ahsanford

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2017, 11:15:48 AM »
The Canon 5D MKIII was announced on 2nd March 2012, the 6D was announced on 17th September 2012 that's roughly 7.5 months apart.

The Canon 5D MKIV was announced 25th August 2017 if the same logic had applied that would have put the 6D MKII in the first weeks of April but instead were still waiting.

I hear you, but it doesn't quite work like a train schedule.  Canon now has the 5DS/5DS R line.  Canon now has the EOS M line.  Canon now has the nutty 760D / 77D line.  Canon now has the SL1 (and apparently an SL2 is on the way).

As a result, the 'cycle refresh' of cameras isn't carved in stone -- except for perhaps the money-printing Rebel line.  See these two release timelines (one from NL and the other on Wikipedia) and you can broadly draw the following conclusions:

  • Canon is steadily expanding it's number of interchangeable lens camera lines.  One might presume that this is clogging up their development pipeline.

  • 'Cycle refresh' times can be roughly pegged from these timelines, but they never get shorter than the prior cycle.  Often, they are getting a bit longer.

So could Canon have pushed out the 6D2 a few months after the 5D4 release?  Sure...  if 1-2 other product lines never happened.

- A
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 11:18:29 AM by ahsanford »

CanonCams

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2017, 11:24:20 AM »
The Canon 5D MKIII was announced on 2nd March 2012, the 6D was announced on 17th September 2012 that's roughly 7.5 months apart.

The Canon 5D MKIV was announced 25th August 2017 if the same logic had applied that would have put the 6D MKII in the first weeks of April but instead were still waiting.

I hear you, but it doesn't quite work like a train schedule.  Canon now has the 5DS/5DS R line.  Canon now has the EOS M line.  Canon now has the nutty 760D / 77D line.  Canon now has the SL1 (and apparently an SL2 is on the way).

As a result, the 'cycle refresh' of cameras isn't carved in stone -- except for perhaps the money-printing Rebel line.  See these two release timelines (one from NL and the other on Wikipedia) and you can broadly draw the following conclusions:

  • Canon is steadily expanding it's number of interchangeable lens camera lines.  One might presume that this is clogging up their development pipeline.

  • 'Cycle refresh' times can be roughly pegged from these timelines, but they never get shorter than the prior cycle.  Often, they are getting a bit longer.

So could Canon have pushed out the 6D2 a few months after the 5D4 release?  Sure...  if 1-2 other product lines never happened.

- A

So, maybe 2018 for the MK II?  :o

ahsanford

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2017, 11:27:35 AM »
Canon ditching the 6D in favour of a full frame mirrorless may not achieve the same objective unless it would continue to use EF lenses, and still be seen as an entry point to full frame.  At the end of the day, I am guessing that Canon wants to see its users move to cameras up market, and buying into the EF ecosystem since once a photographer has a lot of EF glass, it is more financially difficult the change systems.  The 6D seems to bridge that gap quite nicely right now.

I think the 6D line is more about Canon's ability to deliver a less expensive version of a professional FF rig with a similar user experience, i.e. it has an OVF and good responsiveness.

But that said, I do see a future FF mirrorless seamlessly dropping into the EF ecosystem, either with a native full EF mount (mirrorless is not all about being small, people) or a skinny mount + EF adaptor. 

The problem is this:  the first mirrorless FF rig Canon sells will ab-so-lutely cost more than the same-sensored / same-spec'd SLR they sell it alongside.  Why?   Because it's smaller/cooler/newer tech that folks will pay a premium for.  And that takes such a camera -- even if it's a mirrorless clone of a 6D2 -- out of the price point Canon needs it to sit in.  So the 6D2 must have a mirror and cost about X.  That's that, IMHO.

FF mirrorless is 100% going to happen, but the idea that Canon will supplant an entire critical arm of the SLR portfolio with a non-mirrored replacement isn't happening.  It didn't happen in crop, and it sure as hell won't happen in FF.

- A

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2017, 11:27:35 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2017, 11:28:31 AM »
So, maybe 2018 for the MK II?  :o

Don't know.  I think it has to happen this year as the only FF announcement (plus the last gen's trend of clustering FF releases in relatively short gaps in between them) but when it happens this year is a huge TBD. 

- A

amorse

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2017, 12:20:43 PM »

But that said, I do see a future FF mirrorless seamlessly dropping into the EF ecosystem, either with a native full EF mount (mirrorless is not all about being small, people) or a skinny mount + EF adaptor. 

The problem is this:  the first mirrorless FF rig Canon sells will ab-so-lutely cost more than the same-sensored / same-spec'd SLR they sell it alongside.  Why?   Because it's smaller/cooler/newer tech that folks will pay a premium for.  And that takes such a camera -- even if it's a mirrorless clone of a 6D2 -- out of the price point Canon needs it to sit in.  So the 6D2 must have a mirror and cost about X.  That's that, IMHO.

FF mirrorless is 100% going to happen, but the idea that Canon will supplant an entire critical arm of the SLR portfolio with a non-mirrored replacement isn't happening.  It didn't happen in crop, and it sure as hell won't happen in FF.

- A

I think you're right in that they're going to make a full frame mirrorless, but I think the real question is where does Canon see that product's niche in the market at the moment and into the future as that may dictate how they wade into the market now.  Would Canon make it because they think a mirrorless camera can offer a limited need that SLRs aren't providing right now (i.e. size, EVF, better potential focus point coverage, etc.), or do they think that mirrorless could eventually replace SLRs into the (maybe distant) future?

If they're going after a key need such as size, I could see them creating a new lens line - that's what they did with EF-M lenses after all.  Had they used EF-s for their mirrorless cameras they would have been able to market their breadth of lenses available as a marketing tool, but they chose not to. Also, if they were to build a mirrorless full-frame lens line, they may hope that crop mirrorless users start buying full frame mirrorless lenses to help them move up-market.

However, if Canon sees full frame mirrorless as the future then the EF mount would make a lot of sense.  In this case a new line of lenses for their full frame mirrorless would put them at a disadvantage against competitors who have already invested heavily in their mirrorless lens mount.

I would bet that Canon's first full frame mirrorless camera will be just testing the water, and whether or not it uses EF, EF-M or something else will tell us a lot about what they think of the potential for the mirrorless market.  I would think that Canon is closely following the a9's reception with professional photographers to get an idea of whether or not those added benefits are truly that valuable.  That may help answer the question of whether mirrorless is the future of photography or a niche product.

testthewest

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2017, 12:51:06 PM »
I think the delay of the 6DII was forseeable. If it will be an at least little upgrade compared to the original 6d it will be feature wise compareable to the 5dIII. As the 6d was to 5dII.

For the stills only crowed the only main benefits of the expensive 5d4 are
-better weathersealing
-ergonomics
-higher Framerate.

The 5d4 is currently 3500€ in Germany incl. taxes. If they want to release the 6dII at, I say, 2300€, there will be huge canibalising effects.

Right now, I can see Canon geting as much out of the 5d4 as possible. And I predict substancial Cashback-Programs once the 6d is out. I think the delay of the 6d2 indicates a camera which is very competable with the 5dIV.

I don't think that's true. Whoever wanted a 5d4 already has one, the release of the 6D2 is imminent. Why would anybody not wait the few months to save more than thousand € and buy the 5D4? Why could this hypothetical person wait all those months until now, but can't wait a bit longer for the product he actually wants (which you imply by saying the 6D2 will canibalize sales)?

No, the reasons are probably simpler: Canon simply isn't ready to release the camera.
Judging by the amount of patches the 5D4 got, it probably was pushed out too soon without enough polish. Perhaps they don't want to repeat that mistake.

jmoya

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2017, 01:12:03 PM »
I wonder what the video specs will be? Will is shoot atleast 1080 at 60fps? I need a decent full-frame that will double for stills as well as for decent slow-mo video for my youtube vlogs. is that too much to ask?

ahsanford

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 01:24:57 PM »
Would Canon make it because they think a mirrorless camera can offer a limited need that SLRs aren't providing right now (i.e. size, EVF, better potential focus point coverage, etc.), or do they think that mirrorless could eventually replace SLRs into the (maybe distant) future?

You're bounding the problem correctly.  At first, it will be the former statement you made is likely where they will start.  But if a rig like the A9 is possible (disregarding idiotic ergonomics, poor grip, etc.), anyone who doubts that FF mirrorless will replace just about every SLR someday needs a reality check.  I'm not saying the A9 will outperform a 1DX2 in real world field use and become the preference of the most demanding professionals, but one could imagine a rig in 2-3 design next-generations that matches what just about all of what the SLRs do (except for battery life, which is simply the price of admission for mirrorless).

If they're going after a key need such as size, I could see them creating a new lens line...

[truncated]

However, if Canon sees full frame mirrorless as the future then the EF mount would make a lot of sense...

This is about right.  Despite all the reasons that an internet forum believes a full EF mirrorless product would be better (and they are good reasons), we are not the market, and I'm steadily leaning more and more to a thinner than EF + adaptor sort of offering being more likely, which would mandate a new line of lenses.  I don't think it will be a full-blooded new lens portfolio whatsoever -- just a handful of shorter FL lenses that might help create a smaller overall rig than the FF SLR equivalent.

- A

Luds34

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 03:51:52 PM »
Sorry for the rookie question that's been asked a million times, but I'm thinking of simplifying/improving to a 6D (or II).  For general everything except for wildlife (because the almost no times I would be shooting wildlife I'd rent a lens) would a 6D offer improved image quality all things being equal?  I think my mix of lenses would be a 16-35 f/4, 40 STM and 135 f/2.
THANKS.
 :-*

I owned a 70D and than purchased a 6D. The 70D basically collected dust after that and I sold it. The 6D turned out to be a very nice improvement in IQ, especially at ISO 800 and higher. A little better dynamic range as well.

I own the 40mm pancake and 135 f/2L and they are both oustanding on the 6D. I had a 17-40 but sold that as I am looking to upgrade to the 16-35 you have.

Here's an ISO 12800 that I just couldn't imagine turning out nearly as well with my old 70D.

Sparklers! by Ryan Ludwig, on Flickr

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 03:51:52 PM »

PhotographerJim

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
Sorry for the rookie question that's been asked a million times, but I'm thinking of simplifying/improving to a 6D (or II).  For general everything except for wildlife (because the almost no times I would be shooting wildlife I'd rent a lens) would a 6D offer improved image quality all things being equal?  I think my mix of lenses would be a 16-35 f/4, 40 STM and 135 f/2.
THANKS.
 :-*

I have a 7Dmk2 and a 6D, the 6D definitely produces cleaner images than the 7Dmk2, especially when using the same EF lenses.

Luds34

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 04:33:00 PM »
Well, if anyone is curious, I did sell my 6D. Took only a few days and I sold it for 100 bucks less than what I bought it for in 2015. So $100 to "rent" a camera for 25 months? Not too bad. My point being, the demand for the 6D seems to be quite high and I think Canon knows their market well enough that I expect a 6D2 is coming this year. In fact, I agree with those who think it might be slightly delayed as they finish things up. My guess is that ideally they would have wanted to have released it this spring, just in time for the summer season (in most of the populated world).

In any case, You can announce/release the 6D mark II any time now Canon! Pleeeeease, I need FF camera now.  ;)

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Re: All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 04:33:00 PM »