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Author Topic: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras  (Read 28742 times)

KyleSTL

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:41 PM »
... But a great lens, affordable and  weather sealed that i can use for wildlife photography that's what i'm waiting for ! ...

I believe affordable is a dying breed.  This is the same company that just released an $800 lens to replace a $270 lens; $850 for $360; and a $2300 for $1350.  I think 'great' and 'affordable' are becoming mutually exclusive.  While Nikon is updating their cheap primes with new cheap primes (35mm f/1.8G, 50mm f/1.8G), Canon adds unnecessary features and increases the price a couple fold.
Canon EOS 5D | Sigma 17-35mm f/2.8-4 DG | 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM
15mm f/2.8 Fisheye | 28mm f/1.8 USM | 50mm f/1.4 USM | 85mm f/1.8 USM | 550EX | 3x 420EX | ST-E2 | Canon S90 | SD600 w/ WP-DC4

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:41 PM »

CarebbianTraveler

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2012, 02:25:52 PM »
... But a great lens, affordable and  weather sealed that i can use for wildlife photography that's what i'm waiting for ! ...

I believe affordable is a dying breed.  This is the same company that just released an $800 lens to replace a $270 lens; $850 for $360; and a $2300 for $1350.  I think 'great' and 'affordable' are becoming mutually exclusive.  While Nikon is updating their cheap primes with new cheap primes (35mm f/1.8G, 50mm f/1.8G), Canon adds unnecessary features and increases the price a couple fold.

new lenses are always more expensive than the old ones, and also their price will drop quite fast. But I also can't understand why they didn't just release a 24-70 f/2.8 IS that covers all. The prime lenses don't make much sense.

KyleSTL

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2012, 02:27:39 PM »
... The question is, how will the current line of lenses fare under 36+ MP scrutiny? ...

Have you seen images taken with good glass on a 7D?  They are good, right?  That is the same pixel density as a 46MP FF camera.  A 37MP camera is equivalent to 16MP APS-C (D7000).  Why is this still part of the conversation?  The only APS-C/FF camera with a high density than the 7D is the Sony a77 at 24MP APS-C.  Why does everyone think this is some unknown territory we have never seen before?

My 10MP XTi has a higher density sensor than the 5D Mark II, 1Dx, and D4 (would come out to be a 26.3MP FF).  Can I still get pixel-level sharpness with excellent glass?  The answer is yes.
Canon EOS 5D | Sigma 17-35mm f/2.8-4 DG | 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM
15mm f/2.8 Fisheye | 28mm f/1.8 USM | 50mm f/1.4 USM | 85mm f/1.8 USM | 550EX | 3x 420EX | ST-E2 | Canon S90 | SD600 w/ WP-DC4

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2012, 02:31:13 PM »
Well obviously what's next in the lens lineup is a 14-24 2.8 (non-is) with the small primes of a 50/1.4 IS usm  and 85/1.8 IS usm!

CarebbianTraveler

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2012, 02:33:22 PM »
Now, it's getting interesting. The rumors of the D800 were fixed a long time ago, and they turned out to be correct. But nobody seems to have a clue what the next Canon will be. No clue about a new APS-C sensor. Just some rumors about a 22MP sensor, which I don't believe, because it makes no sense next to the 18MP one.

You're not thinking about the competitive landscape, only Canon's products.

Canon's competitors have APS-C sensors with 24MP. Canon needs to be either at the same count or very close to it  in order for it to remain part of the buying equation for many customers.

The 22 and 18MP was about the full frame sensor. I was just wondering why no APS-C rumor is around. There's a release every year and the last one was one year ago. But you're right. This year a new sensor must arrive with more pixels, especially since the kept the sensor last year.

neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2012, 02:37:05 PM »
While I agree that we're not exactly lens resolution-limited, it should be noted that overall shaprness is a combination of multiple factors, and sharper lenses will yield increased overall sharpness. 

Have you seen images taken with good glass on a 7D?  They are good, right?  That is the same pixel density as a 46MP FF camera.   Why does everyone think this is some unknown territory we have never seen before?

Because we haven't seen it before.  The unknown territory is the combination of high pixel density and the perpiphery of the image circle.   If you look at lens performance and/or theoretical MTF curves, you notice that lenses perform best in the center of the image circle, and that's the part that we see with an EF lens and an APS-C sensor. 
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anthros

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2012, 02:41:23 PM »

So...4D is a no-no, but D4, that's fine?  As was pointed out by someone else in another thread...if the number 4 is such a stigma in Japan, why did Nikon release a D4?  They are also a Japanese company...

Yeah...good point. I cleverly thought of the D4 counterexample just after I posted. I admit I'm surprised that Nikon used the number 4 in a flagship product name. Maybe the 4=death thing is something westerners fixate on and make too much of.

At any rate, thanks for pointing out my oversight.

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2012, 02:41:23 PM »

CarebbianTraveler

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
Because we haven't seen it before.  The unknown territory is the combination of high pixel density and the perpiphery of the image circle.   If you look at lens performance and/or theoretical MTF curves, you notice that lenses perform best in the center of the image circle, and that's the part that we see with an EF lens and an APS-C sensor. 

But that's why canon also updates the lens portfolio. The 70-200 f/2.8 IS II for example has extremely sharp corners. Higher MP cameras need better lenses. And canon is also interested in selling lenses ;-)

KyleSTL

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2012, 03:30:50 PM »
... But a great lens, affordable and  weather sealed that i can use for wildlife photography that's what i'm waiting for ! ...

I believe affordable is a dying breed.  This is the same company that just released an $800 lens to replace a $270 lens; $850 for $360; and a $2300 for $1350.  I think 'great' and 'affordable' are becoming mutually exclusive.  While Nikon is updating their cheap primes with new cheap primes (35mm f/1.8G, 50mm f/1.8G), Canon adds unnecessary features and increases the price a couple fold.

If the exchange rate between the US dollar and the Japanese yen had of been the same today as it was when the 20-70/2.8 was originally launched then the new 24-70/2.8 II would be circa $1850.

Both the 24/2.8 and 28/2.8 introduce IS and USM to those lenses. That doesn't come for free - compare the price of the 70-200/4 USM ($640) with the 70-200/4 IS USM ($1160). $500 price difference.  The comparable price for the 24/2.8 and 28/2.8 is ~$640 (instead of $800) and ~$680 (instead of $850) if the US dollar was strong. New features (IS and USM) do not come for free.

I wasn't trying to say they should be the same price, only that the increase in price is more than I would have anticipated.
Canon EOS 5D | Sigma 17-35mm f/2.8-4 DG | 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM
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KyleSTL

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2012, 03:44:15 PM »
Because we haven't seen it before.  The unknown territory is the combination of high pixel density and the perpiphery of the image circle.   If you look at lens performance and/or theoretical MTF curves, you notice that lenses perform best in the center of the image circle, and that's the part that we see with an EF lens and an APS-C sensor.

That is very true. We have only seen the center 39% of the area (62% of the vertical and horizontal dimensions) at that density. I guess based on that we have seen, we have not hit the point of diminishing returns on resolution for that section. What remains to be seen is if the corners of the lenses are out-resolved by the sensor.
Canon EOS 5D | Sigma 17-35mm f/2.8-4 DG | 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM
15mm f/2.8 Fisheye | 28mm f/1.8 USM | 50mm f/1.4 USM | 85mm f/1.8 USM | 550EX | 3x 420EX | ST-E2 | Canon S90 | SD600 w/ WP-DC4

fyngyrz

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Is anyone else as...
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2012, 04:06:16 PM »
...completely unmoved by Canon's recent gear as I am?

For lenses, I'm interested in fast, low-CA lenses. And no, 2.8 isn't fast. 1.2 or 1.0 is fast.

For cameras, I'm interested in high ISO and low noise and more dynamic range. Not more pixels. 10...15mp is fine.

As for price, I'm interested in 5DmkII territory... $7000 is cause for hilarity, not purchase.

Seriously, it's been years since Canon released *anything* I actually wanted to go out and buy.

Half of every day is spent in the dark. Cameras and lenses that do poorly in the dark are of exactly zero interest, especially when we're talking the prices we do for EF/EOS.

I'm hoping for a 5DmkIII priced like the mkII that will add even more light-gathering capacity to my 85mm and 50mm f1.2 lenses. $3000 absolute tops.

The 5DmkII is *really* long in the tooth now. I like it, all right, but it's long past time it was retired for something better.

Better shots. In darker environments. That's the key. After all, a camera that can do that will do well in the daytime, too.

psolberg

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 04:15:00 PM »
Let me just say admin that I've followed your site for years. never cared for the forums but this time I will. I've heard you say many times before (pretty much every year for the last two years) that this would be a big lens years. never is. canon sticks to its schedule of updates and a couple of new things now and then. But this year is likely to be the typical thing as lenses go, because that's how it goes all the time. Lenses will come as they always do with a +- few variance at best. we're not going to get 10 lenses by july, period. we haven't even gotten stuff that was anounced last year!.

Second, new better lenses don't point to a huge MP body. it is just the logical progression of things. everybody else, nikon/sony/sigma whatever, put out new models with better optics all the time. If they weren't better, nobody would buy them considering they are always more expensive. This is just wishful thinking from people that wish canon to keep chasing the ever pointless MP crown.
 
Third, canon isn't going back and forth at this point like a panic grandmother. The D5III is already what it is likely just about to be made official with production and tooling already churning out parts. 22MP or 52MP, it is what it is and if it doesn't fit somebody's idea of perfect, then that's life.

All we're hearing is a reaction to Nikon's D800, and we always do, for nikon can't do anything without people freaking out why canon isn't doing the same and vice versa. I'm sure everybody is emailing you that a 50MP 3DX is inminent in just a few months....curiously just as the D800 makes a splash. Whereas before everybody was emailing you that a low MP 5D was on the wings because that's what nikon was supposed to have.

get it? it's all just the same trend. I enjoy educated guessing but let's keep things realistic.


... The question is, how will the current line of lenses fare under 36+ MP scrutiny? ...

Have you seen images taken with good glass on a 7D?  They are good, right?  That is the same pixel density as a 46MP FF camera.  A 37MP camera is equivalent to 16MP APS-C (D7000).  Why is this still part of the conversation?  The only APS-C/FF camera with a high density than the 7D is the Sony a77 at 24MP APS-C.  Why does everyone think this is some unknown territory we have never seen before?

My 10MP XTi has a higher density sensor than the 5D Mark II, 1Dx, and D4 (would come out to be a 26.3MP FF).  Can I still get pixel-level sharpness with excellent glass?  The answer is yes.

EXACTLY. THANKS. Nikon/Canon/Sony don't need new lenses for 30MP+ full frame. Maybe if it was APSC and maybe if it was in the 40MP range. All this stuff about one lens indicating a huge MP jump is a bunch of wishful thinking. Surely edges in full frame cameras are going to come under scrutiny of the pixel peepers, but who cares. 36MP is only about a 20% linear increase over 20's so if the edges were good before, they will be good after. Sony, as other pointed out, has a 24MP APSC sensor which if sony wanted to, could be upsized to over 50MP. At that point *maybe* you'll start to worry. But 36MP is simply the next natural step.
22 is the new 12,
36 is the new 22.

Quote
Canon should not take the D800 lightly. It´s just one camera, but it could destroy the Canon sales if Canon fails to reply right now! Show who´s boss. I always think realistic! Right now Canon is in a lot of trouble.
I hate to break it to you but this is precisely what's wrong with the crowds. Canon doesnt' have to show anybody who's boss...because there is NO boss. In fact if you look at specifications, Nikon had both the highest MP pro level DSLR (D3x if you don't consider the A900 pro) and the highest ISO performing full frame camera. Did canon die? did they get destroyed? What about this, canon doesn't have the highest MP apsc body either. are they going to die?

let's cool off for a second, put fanboyism aside and think straight. people switch back and forth all the time. canon has a lead in some areas and lag in others. you can't expect, and you'll never see any one company be the top of everything. it may have happened in the film days but not these days.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:58:58 PM by psolberg »

jasonsim

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 05:04:38 PM »
I´m sorry if things i said was upsetting to some, the thing is that i´m a very realistic person. I´m not a certain brand fanatic, though Canon is my first choice. The Nikon D800 has the same AF and metering system as the D4. 36mp and probably the best video from a dslr today. I have no doubts in my mind that Canon can make a camera just as good. But they need to hurry, they have to give us something to look forward to, not today not tomorrow, but yesterday. The sad part is that i know for a fact that a lot of people selling their canon gear and the reason is "swithing system" that´s what it says in their ads. Many doubt that Canon can match the D800. As we speak more and more are having thoughts of going to the other side. Canon should not take the D800 lightly. It´s just one camera, but it could destroy the Canon sales if Canon fails to reply right now! Show who´s boss. I always think realistic! Right now Canon is in a lot of trouble.

I agree, Canon has to come out with a killer response to the D800 and D800e.  I doubt that they have a very good response though; perhaps a reason for them delaying the release of a 5D III. 

As for the new 24-70mm f/2.8 II: no IS is a real bummer and so is the stratospheric price!  Did not see a need for the version 1, much less a need for version II.  Damn dumb for Canon to put IS into consumer grade 28mm and 24mm primes.

The comment about the 50mm f/1.2L II possibility is just crazy.  The 50mm f/1.2L is not that old and they could stand to improve quality control on it.  Took me two tries to get a good one.  Still not the best AF, but I can live with it.
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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 05:04:38 PM »

KitH

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »
While I agree that we're not exactly lens resolution-limited, it should be noted that overall shaprness is a combination of multiple factors, and sharper lenses will yield increased overall sharpness. 

Have you seen images taken with good glass on a 7D?  They are good, right?  That is the same pixel density as a 46MP FF camera.   Why does everyone think this is some unknown territory we have never seen before?

Because we haven't seen it before.  The unknown territory is the combination of high pixel density and the perpiphery of the image circle.   If you look at lens performance and/or theoretical MTF curves, you notice that lenses perform best in the center of the image circle, and that's the part that we see with an EF lens and an APS-C sensor.



Hi Neuro,

Do you think there's a case for making the image circle of L lenses larger and is this behind the front element getting wider on the new lenses (for a given max aperture)?  Is this going to be where they find the FF lens quality, by forming the FF image using just the middle part of oversize lenses?   

It's a formula that works splendidly in the TS/E lenses.

Is there a reason why this wouldn't work (other than needing some stupendous aspherical surfaces and heading towards Leica S2 territory).

 

Woody

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 06:58:43 PM »
I agree, Canon has to come out with a killer response to the D800 and D800e.  I doubt that they have a very good response though; perhaps a reason for them delaying the release of a 5D III.

Thought we should all take a walk down memory lane.

Does anyone remember the time when the Nikon D90 was announced? It was the first camera with video capabilities and everyone thought Canon was doomed. But several weeks later, the 5D2 was announced: FF camera with 1080p video capability. Then, as they say, the rest is history: nobody ever talked about the video capability of the D90 anymore, the 5D2 became a massive seller for Canon (surprising even Canon themselves) and every single Canon DSLR after the 5D2 was equipped 1080p video capability while Nikon had nothing to offer (with 1080p) until the D3100 was released...

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Re: What's Next? Lenses & Cameras
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 06:58:43 PM »