December 12, 2017, 10:49:57 PM

Author Topic: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III  (Read 13487 times)

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 12:44:38 AM »
I said it on another thread but I'll repeat: how do you know fewer lines would mean more sales? Do you know anything about selling cameras?

And my eyes are in pain from rolling at your last comment. This is APS-C, not a tiny smartphone camera sensor.
I never said it will "mean more sales" but it will mean "better business". What I want Canon to do is to leverage economies of scale in the hopes that fewer SKUs at increased output will (a) reduce their cost, (b) keep the company profitable & (c) keep selling at prices relatively low.

This is especially true for the 17 point & shoots under the ELPH Series, G Series and SX Series cameras.

Dump the bottom 80% SKU that sold the least volume and focus on doing really well the top 20% SKU that generates the 80% profitability.

In a declining industry be more like Apple and less like Samsung.

Canon is doing this rather slowly already. These are the compact series and their last updated product that are not discontinued.

A Series in 2012
D Series in 2014
S Series in 2014

These are the compact series that continued and went up market to stay relevant in the era of smartphones.

G Series increased in image sensor size to APS-C within this week.
SX Series has WiFi and location information via smartphone last April 2017

The ELPH series has not updated since January 2016 and this product line renews on a 11-12 month cycle since 2012. This product line may not be updated anymore.
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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 12:44:38 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2017, 04:01:13 AM »
I said it on another thread but I'll repeat: how do you know fewer lines would mean more sales? Do you know anything about selling cameras?

And my eyes are in pain from rolling at your last comment. This is APS-C, not a tiny smartphone camera sensor.
I never said it will "mean more sales" but it will mean "better business". What I want Canon to do is to leverage economies of scale in the hopes that fewer SKUs at increased output will (a) reduce their cost, (b) keep the company profitable & (c) keep selling at prices relatively low.

This is especially true for the 17 point & shoots under the ELPH Series, G Series and SX Series cameras.

Dump the bottom 80% SKU that sold the least volume and focus on doing really well the top 20% SKU that generates the 80% profitability.

In a declining industry be more like Apple and less like Samsung.

Canon is doing this rather slowly already. These are the compact series and their last updated product that are not discontinued.

A Series in 2012
D Series in 2014
S Series in 2014

These are the compact series that continued and went up market to stay relevant in the era of smartphones.

G Series increased in image sensor size to APS-C within this week.
SX Series has WiFi and location information via smartphone last April 2017

The ELPH series has not updated since January 2016 and this product line renews on a 11-12 month cycle since 2012. This product line may not be updated anymore.

I agree with the thinking behind it, but unfortunately in marketing you are contending with human nature and things that do not fit onto a manufacturing balance sheet. Firstly, everyone wants to think there is a specific model for them (you only need to see the complaints and portents of doom that goes on whenever a new model is released). Secondly it has long been known that having more products creates an atmosphere of competition (albeit false) which actually increases sales. Thirdly, people often buy into a particular brand because they like the idea of stepwise progression to doing things like the professionals do - whether they ever take advantage of it is irrelevant but it is often a factor.
Do you really believe that Canon keep these models going for fun and 'aw, what the hell, we can afford it'? They make them because they serve a purpose in the market place.

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2017, 04:26:48 AM »
Do you really believe that Canon keep these models going for fun and 'aw, what the hell, we can afford it'? They make them because they serve a purpose in the market place.
Canon is conservative enough to be more of a "follower" than a "pioneer" when it comes to product releases.

If a product does not sell they just quietly discontinue the product line like what happened A, D, S and soon the ELPH Series.

What I have issue is how slow they are to change & improve in light of the competition coming from smartphones, action cameras, 360 cameras, mirrorless and Sony image sensor technology.

I have a vested interest in Canon continuing to do business until the year 2100 as I want better full frame bodies every 3-5 years.

I am even open to Canon outsourcing their image sensors to Sony just to keep up as I doubt they have the R&D money to produce superior components.
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Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 05:10:10 AM »

Canon is conservative enough to be more of a "follower" than a "pioneer" when it comes to product releases.

If a product does not sell they just quietly discontinue the product line like what happened A, D, S and soon the ELPH Series.

What I have issue is how slow they are to change & improve in light of the competition coming from smartphones, action cameras, 360 cameras, mirrorless and Sony image sensor technology.

I have a vested interest in Canon continuing to do business until the year 2100 as I want better full frame bodies every 3-5 years.

I am even open to Canon outsourcing their image sensors to Sony just to keep up as I doubt they have the R&D money to produce superior components.

People keep on banging on about the sensors as the prime example of how Canon fail to innovate, but it is clear they have little understanding of how product development works. Canon choose to make their own sensors which is a solid business decision. In any competitive product development one company gets a jump on the technology through little more than good luck - the right people at the right time seeing something and taking it on. The company who 'misses' this opportunity then has a choice to carry on their own route or buy in the (what is at the time) superior technology and the question they have to answer is 'is this hurting us?' And despite 10 years of supposedly inferior sensors, Canon has increased market share so the answer is probably 'we would love a sensor with Sony's qualities but sensor performance is clearly not a defining factor for success'. No matter how many times I and others point this out, many (including you) seem to not want to listen to this simple self-evident truth.
As it is, Canon latest sensors have pretty much caught up on sensor technology as evidenced by the 5D4 and 1Dx2. The choices they made with the 6D2 have created such a furore that has drowned out that one simple fact. Canon. Have. Pretty. Much. Caught. Up. On. Sensor. Performance.
So now, Canon do not have any reason to outsource sensors to Sony especially as it seems even Sony have reached a technological limit. As for BSI, a recurring comment I have read is that the practical advantages seem to be far less than people were hoping for.

So not only have Canon been developing their sensors and now got technology to truly rival Sony, they retain the biggest market share so yes, they are doing good business. They are reportedly expanding their mirrorless. So they seem to be doing good business. Their market share remains the highest of any single company. So they are clearly doing good business.
Why you think 'action cameras' are a threat to them I don't know - I would be very surprised if Canon were not looking at them but they remain a niche product.
The biggest threat to Canon is not their technological development but their size. Not always because of their 'oil tanker' like ability to change track, but because bigger companies are more exposed when a market shrinks rapidly because they have production plants with assets that have a fixed cost. You can sack workers but the plants still need maintenance etc and even reducing the number of production plants have costs. Ask Nikon about the number of re-structurings they have undergone recently - nice technology but poor financials.

Quote
I want better full frame bodies every 3-5 years.
Have you ever seen a 'full frame' action camera? I haven't
But isn't a 'better FF camera' what you are getting every 5 years? And in 2100 I very much doubt you will even be able to pick one up, let alone use it!

So to me your comments about Canon doing 'good business' are based not on what 'good business' actually means, but on what you want to see and little knowledge of how marketing and product development actually work.

AvTvM

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 05:45:53 AM »
As it is, Canon latest sensors have pretty much caught up on sensor technology as evidenced by the 5D4 and 1Dx2. The choices they made with the 6D2 have created such a furore that has drowned out that one simple fact. Canon. Have. Pretty. Much. Caught. Up. On. Sensor. Performance.
So now, Canon do not have any reason to outsource sensors to Sony especially as it seems even Sony have reached a technological limit. As for BSI, a recurring comment I have read is that the practical advantages seem to be far less than people were hoping for.
...
So to me your comments about Canon doing 'good business' are based not on what 'good business' actually means, but on what you want to see and little knowledge of how marketing and product development actually work.

Well, to me your comments read like typical Canon fanboy apologist, rather than being based on actual knowledge of Canon and competitor products.

1. After about 7 years Canon of lagging dramatically behind [1 to 2 stops poorer performance] Canon has even now still not managed to fully catchup to Sony sensors, not even with their latest and most expensive models [5d4, 1dx2]. Not to mention, Canon being able to *innovatively leapfrog* Sony sensors ...   as a matter of fact, Canon is only now being able to make ADC sensors ...

2. there is no indication that Sony sensors should have "reached a technological limit". There is no reason to believe Sony cannot further develop their sensors and maintain the lead ovr Canon sensors in a number of crucial parameters.

3. BSI has very visible practical performance advantages for both video and stills image capture. It is definitely not "underwhelming" in any way.

4. If anything then the much hyped canon DP-AF technology is way overrated and has limited advantages in practical use - and those only for video capture (AF), not for stills. As evidenced by the fact, that AF performance of even the latest and most expensive Canon mirrorless cams with DP-AF [M5, M6] is still well behind what Fujifilm, Sony and Olympus deliver in AF performance - specifically tracking AF, face/eye-AF etc. -
 by using  "regular hybrid" AF [on-sensor PD-AF plus CD-AF]. Sony A6300/6500, Fuji XT-2, X-20 draw circles around any Canon EOS M in terms of AF performance.

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2017, 06:34:41 AM »


Well, to me your comments read like typical Canon fanboy apologist, rather than being based on actual knowledge of Canon and competitor products.

How did I know you would be the first to come back with little more than an insult? Does logic hurt you so much that you are unable to put a cogent argument together?
Tell me what knowledge of Canon products am I missing that you are privy to? Where in the above did I even attempt an explanation of competitor products? Answer - I didn't.

I occasionally participate in Nikon forums and have said pretty much the same thing in looking at decisions from a business point of view. So no, this is not about being a fanboy.

1. After about 7 years Canon of lagging dramatically behind [1 to 2 stops poorer performance] Canon has even now still not managed to fully catchup to Sony sensors, not even with their latest and most expensive models [5d4, 1dx2]. Not to mention, Canon being able to *innovatively leapfrog* Sony sensors ...   as a matter of fact, Canon is only now being able to make ADC sensors ...
Read what I said. Canon have a choice  - do they continue to plough their won furrow? Do they buy in other technology simply to impress the measurebators? Do they buy in new technology because their current choice is hurting them?
Does any sensor made in the last 5 years meet the needs of 99% of photograpehrs 99% of the time?. Yes.
Is their current Is having an inferior sensor hurting their sales? No. Period.
Therefore do they need to buy in other peoples' technology? No.
So explain to me why they have to. Explain it in terms of sales and profit.  And explain to me what part of your so-called knowledge Canon does not know.

2. there is no indication that Sony sensors should have "reached a technological limit". There is no reason to believe Sony cannot further develop their sensors and maintain the lead ovr Canon sensors in a number of crucial parameters.
Where are the significant changes that Sony have made? Why else have Canon closed the gap on Sony's wonderful technology. I am not saying advances are not possible but those advances are getting less and less. Please educate me otherwise. That is strongly indicative of getting closer to limits. Why else have

3. BSI has very visible practical performance advantages for both video and stills image capture. It is definitely not "underwhelming" in any way.
I did not say it did not have visible advantages. I said it has not promised the level of improvement that many had predicted.

4. If anything then the much hyped canon DP-AF technology is way overrated and has limited advantages in practical use - and those only for video capture (AF), not for stills. As evidenced by the fact, that AF performance of even the latest and most expensive Canon mirrorless cams with DP-AF [M5, M6] is still well behind what Fujifilm, Sony and Olympus deliver in AF performance - specifically tracking AF, face/eye-AF etc. -
 by using  "regular hybrid" AF [on-sensor PD-AF plus CD-AF]. Sony A6300/6500, Fuji XT-2, X-20 draw circles around any Canon EOS M in terms of AF performance.
DPAF may be overrated to you, but then you have a strong track record in believing your view is what everyone else wants and believes.
I am not surprised that elements of the mirrorless techology lag behind Olympus and Sony. Canon (and Nikon) concentrate on their core market which are DSLR.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:36:37 AM by Mikehit »

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2017, 07:27:02 AM »
Canon has yet to reach the tipping point where in they will try to equal or exceed Sony sensors. Hopefully we wont need to wait until the year 2100 for that to happen.

People are locked into Canon because of the EF mount so stick to it. I just hope Canon isnt in the habit of abusing that loyalty.
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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2017, 07:27:02 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2017, 07:39:03 AM »
Canon has yet to reach the tipping point where in they will try to equal or exceed Sony sensors. Hopefully we wont need to wait until the year 2100 for that to happen.

People are locked into Canon because of the EF mount so stick to it. I just hope Canon isnt in the habit of abusing that loyalty.

You are again making the mistake that sensor performance is central to any camera's success. Tell me how the 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensors will limit your photography as opposed to Sony.
The very fact you are staying with Canon shows how important the difference in sensor performance is to you - and it shows Canon they are giving a whole package that is competitive.

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2017, 08:10:18 AM »
You are again making the mistake that sensor performance is central to any camera's success. Tell me how the 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensors will limit your photography as opposed to Sony.
The very fact you are staying with Canon shows how important the difference in sensor performance is to you - and it shows Canon they are giving a whole package that is competitive.
Image sensor performance and size does matter. It is a selling point whether it be a smartphone or dedicated still camera.

It is such a selling point that PowerShot G1 X Mark III prominently mentions that it has a APS-C image snsor.

I bought a Sony a7R II in 2016 and a Leica X Type 113 in 2014 because Canon did not have products like these until recently.

I am willing to go multi system when the technology is there. I am in the very small minority who does this and it is somewhat inconvenient.

The 1Dx2 and 5D4's advantage is its AF system. But Sony is making strides with the A9.

Which now leaves us with the lens system where only Nikon could compete in in ts completeness.
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Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2017, 08:32:32 AM »
Image sensor performance and size does matter. It is a selling point whether it be a smartphone or dedicated still camera.

It is such a selling point that PowerShot G1 X Mark III prominently mentions that it has a APS-C image snsor.

I bought a Sony a7R II in 2016 and a Leica X Type 113 in 2014 because Canon did not have products like these until recently.

I am willing to go multi system when the technology is there. I am in the very small minority who does this and it is somewhat inconvenient.


I am not sure if it is me not explaining myself properly or your wilfully ignoring what I am saying.
Nowhere have I said that sensor performance does not matter. No-one I know who has bought a higher res camera has ever said 'Dang, I don't need those pixels. I wish they had kept it at 8MP of the 30D'. Likewise for dynamic range

What I am saying is that sensor performance is not a factor that in itself defines the success or failure of a camera. Because if it was, Sony would be #1.

The 1Dx2 and 5D4's advantage is its AF system. But Sony is making strides with the A9.
I would say Sony AF to Canon AF is about the same as Canon sensor performance to Sony sensor performance.

I bought a Sony a7R II in 2016 and a Leica X Type 113 in 2014 because Canon did not have products like these until recently.
Which sort of goes against your criticisms of Canon.
So what you really seem to be doing is comparing the A9 to the whole range of Canon cameras including the xxxxD models.
So tell me, as an 'ecosystem' it seems Canon still rocks it.

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2017, 08:59:13 AM »
I am not sure if it is me not explaining myself properly or your wilfully ignoring what I am saying.
Nowhere have I said that sensor performance does not matter. No-one I know who has bought a higher res camera has ever said 'Dang, I don't need those pixels. I wish they had kept it at 8MP of the 30D'. Likewise for dynamic range

What I am saying is that sensor performance is not a factor that in itself defines the success or failure of a camera. Because if it was, Sony would be #1.

I would say Sony AF to Canon AF is about the same as Canon sensor performance to Sony sensor performance.

Which sort of goes against your criticisms of Canon.

So what you really seem to be doing is comparing the A9 to the whole range of Canon cameras including the xxxxD models.
So tell me, as an 'ecosystem' it seems Canon still rocks it.
Canon's overall product is good enough not to leave for most people because switching is really expensive as you need to rebuy the Sony equivalent of all your Canon or Nikon gear. Some lenses Sony doesn't really have at all like say the 200/2.0, 800/5.6 or 400/2.8.

So you get a lot of complaints and few switchers because no system is complete or perfect.

After sales support is another plus with Canon that Sony needs to learn.

Image sensor may be awesome but Sony takes its sweet time to repair something you may as well just go with something more timely and reliable.

This is in contrast to the smartphone market. Sony offers the top half of all smartphone image sensors used. Quality varies from model to model depending the image sensor used, what hardware is matched to it, quality of software, cloud support and after sales support. If a consumer has a bad experience with brand ABC they can easily switch to a Google Pixel 2 or iPhone X because the accessories are relatively cheap.

The A9 is the sports camera of Sony and is priced at $4,999 to reflect this. 1DX2 and 5D4 does not make up the whole body lineup of Canon and the A9 is priced to slot between these two full frame bodies.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2017, 09:10:54 AM »
1. After about 7 years Canon of lagging dramatically behind [1 to 2 stops poorer performance] Canon has even now still not managed to fully catchup to Sony sensors, not even with their latest and most expensive models [5d4, 1dx2]. Not to mention, Canon being able to *innovatively leapfrog* Sony sensors ...   as a matter of fact, Canon is only now being able to make ADC sensors ...

2. there is no indication that Sony sensors should have "reached a technological limit". There is no reason to believe Sony cannot further develop their sensors and maintain the lead ovr Canon sensors in a number of crucial parameters.

3. BSI has very visible practical performance advantages for both video and stills image capture. It is definitely not "underwhelming" in any way.

4. If anything then the much hyped canon DP-AF technology is way overrated and has limited advantages in practical use - and those only for video capture (AF), not for stills. As evidenced by the fact, that AF performance of even the latest and most expensive Canon mirrorless cams with DP-AF [M5, M6] is still well behind what Fujifilm, Sony and Olympus deliver in AF performance - specifically tracking AF, face/eye-AF etc. -
 by using  "regular hybrid" AF [on-sensor PD-AF plus CD-AF]. Sony A6300/6500, Fuji XT-2, X-20 draw circles around any Canon EOS M in terms of AF performance.

1: That simply isn't true when you compare comparable products. http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Sony%20ILCE-9

2: Except for the fact that they have plateaued. http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Sony%20ILCE-7,Sony%20ILCE-9 As have Nikon. http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D4S,Nikon%20D5

3: For small sensors that is true, for larger senses it doesn't seem to be so far. http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

4: I tend to agree that dual pixel tech has limited value for stills shooters using primarily phase detection AF, which is one of the strongest plus points of the SLR design.

But why let facts get in the way of a good rant?
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

AvTvM

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2017, 09:14:14 AM »
So tell me, as an 'ecosystem' it seems Canon still rocks it.

no, you are not a fanboi ...  ;D  ;D  ;D

some days i really believe you are paid in some way by Canon. Hard to believe a normal person would so persistently and doggedly defend any gear supplier and all its shortcomings including blatant, factual, measurable and practice relevant deficits ...

btw: Sony A9 AF is absolutely on par with 1DX II - and both are (slightly) behind Nikon D5. Just saying.  :)

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2017, 09:14:14 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2017, 09:52:20 AM »
So tell me, as an 'ecosystem' it seems Canon still rocks it.

no, you are not a fanboi ...  ;D  ;D  ;D

some days i really believe you are paid in some way by Canon. Hard to believe a normal person would so persistently and doggedly defend any gear supplier and all its shortcomings including blatant, factual, measurable and practice relevant deficits ...

btw: Sony A9 AF is absolutely on par with 1DX II - and both are (slightly) behind Nikon D5. Just saying.  :)


Where have I ever denied the deficits of Canon gear? Please show me three quotes to support that. You on the other hand have absolutely no data to support your contention that Canon is suffering in the market place because of a supposedly inferior sensor. That Canon is suffering due to lack of FF mirrorless cameras.
So by your criteria it seems you are a Sony fanboy so completely blind to what really matters to the camera-buying market. You are waffling on about your personal desires believing they are what everyone else prioritises and yet have zero evidence to support it.

Show me a review that the Sony A9 with 400mm f2.8 is on par with Canon 1Dx2. Or with a 400mm f4. Or 500mm f4+1.4tc. I would be interested to see those reviews.

dolina

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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2017, 10:01:02 AM »
See the text in bold on the earnings related to cameras.

http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-q1-2017-results-canon-raises-annual-profit-outlook/
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Re: Canon Officially Announces The PowerShot G1 X Mark III
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2017, 10:01:02 AM »