December 10, 2017, 11:06:32 PM

Author Topic: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?  (Read 19775 times)

ahsanford

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 05:08:33 PM »
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag?  Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms?  Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second?  You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

+1.

On this front:  OVF/SLR 1, EVF/Mirrorless 0.

Tapping into a live sensor read and running a chain of shots without blackout is potentially a great upside, but missing decisive moments is a big takeaway.

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 05:08:33 PM »

eoren1

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2017, 05:59:33 PM »
Just like to chime in here. I migrated to an A7R2/A9 combination this year coming from a Panasonic GH/MFT ecosystem since 2013. I ended up also migrating all of my MFT lenses to FE as well in the process to take advantage of the specific AF features like 20fps, Eye-AF, etc.

I'm not sure many people here have used an A9, and they might be basing their comparisons based on the A7R2 era. But I've shot a few weddings on this camera and the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that until you've either rented or owned it and shot with one on the job.

The battery system and power management are significantly better than the A7R2. I've shot 2x4K weddings with 2 batteries total over 11 hours with power remaining and I'm sure if I was doing stills only 1 battery could last an entire day. The A7R2 needed 6 battery swaps. The A9 also has a custom menu option and also a custom recall which I absolutely enjoyed using on Canon bodies previously. It also has separate drive and af dials, a touchscreen for af and a joystick controller. It also does dual 4K backup recordings across both memory cards. The A7R3 will gain a lot of these improvements for sure.

Some competitor's do eventually catch up, so it's always great to keep an open mind and consider your alternatives.

Thanks Jay - great info. 

I make money off landscapes where the increased megapixels would be nice, DR boost appreciated and the pixel shift potentially helpful. 

However, I enjoy shooting my kids at least as much and eye AF, faster fps to catch action, no blackout should definitely increase keepers/favorites.

Someone mentioned Canon color and I had heard that before - that Canon produces much nicer skin tones.  I use LR to process and wonder if you have seen a difference with the Sony A9 in shooting weddings.
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Don Haines

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2017, 06:08:38 PM »
There really isn't that much difference in something shot with a 30Mpixel or a 40Mpixel camera.... at least if you stick with the 35mm format....

If you really want a LOT of resolution for landscape pictures, have you considered medium format? Think 16 bit colour depth (not 14 like Conon/Nikon/Sony) and real 15 bit DR...... and up to 100Mpixels.....
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:14:22 PM by Don Haines »
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eoren1

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2017, 06:26:25 PM »
There really isn't that much difference in something shot with a 30Mpixel or a 40Mpixel camera.... at least if you stick with the 35mm format....

If you really want a LOT of resolution for landscape pictures, have you considered medium format? Think 16 bit colour depth (not 14 like Conon/Nikon/Sony) and real 15 bit DR...... and up to 100Mpixels.....

The 5DmkIII is 22 MP.  Resolution is 5760 wide so at 300ppi/dpi, max native print is 19" on long end.  I've definitely printed bigger (40x60) with use of software programs such as Perfect Resize.  The Sony at 42MP would print 26" long at 300 dpi/ppi.  Not a huge difference but I would likely end up being able to print 95-99% of my stuff shot with that camera without having to resize and worry about added artifacts.

As for MF, it would be wonderful but also useless for shooting kids and I don't want to run two systems.
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ahsanford

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2017, 06:36:25 PM »
As for MF, it would be wonderful but also useless for shooting kids

You beat me to it.  Unless you want to stop down and range focus, shooting kids in unscripted situations takes a proper AF system.  MF can crush certain types of photography, but I'd imagine this isn't one of them unless you have a ton of patience and don't mind missing a lot of great moments.

- A

Don Haines

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2017, 06:51:13 PM »
There really isn't that much difference in something shot with a 30Mpixel or a 40Mpixel camera.... at least if you stick with the 35mm format....

If you really want a LOT of resolution for landscape pictures, have you considered medium format? Think 16 bit colour depth (not 14 like Conon/Nikon/Sony) and real 15 bit DR...... and up to 100Mpixels.....

The 5DmkIII is 22 MP.  Resolution is 5760 wide so at 300ppi/dpi, max native print is 19" on long end.  I've definitely printed bigger (40x60) with use of software programs such as Perfect Resize.  The Sony at 42MP would print 26" long at 300 dpi/ppi.  Not a huge difference but I would likely end up being able to print 95-99% of my stuff shot with that camera without having to resize and worry about added artifacts.

As for MF, it would be wonderful but also useless for shooting kids and I don't want to run two systems.

Have you tried flash photography on the kids? It gets you more light to work with.....
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ahsanford

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2017, 06:53:39 PM »
Have you tried flash photography on the kids? It gets you more light to work with.....

For dedicated portraits, sure, but for just hanging out, travel, candids and so on, the flash overshadows the moment, makes it about me, etc. and I almost never use it.

- A

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2017, 06:53:39 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2017, 07:04:09 PM »
Have you tried flash photography on the kids? It gets you more light to work with.....

For dedicated portraits, sure, but for just hanging out, travel, candids and so on, the flash overshadows the moment, makes it about me, etc. and I almost never use it.

- A
I find that I can get it to work well indoors where I can bounce off walls or ceilings, but outdoors (at least for me) it makes everything look harsh and staged..... I tried it at the bird feeders, and my only accomplishment there was that I now know how to scare birds away from the feeders :(
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Jopa

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2017, 08:28:21 PM »
There is no point to jump ship unless you're changing format. For example going full MF. Your lenses would render perfectly fine image to any FF sensor. A good thing about Sony is you can have it as a "digital back" for your Canon lenses if you aren't satisfied with DR or some other random things. 5dsr2 is coming next year anyway...

jayphotoworks

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2017, 10:04:39 PM »
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag?  Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms?  Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second?  You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Don Haines

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2017, 10:22:24 PM »
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag?  Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms?  Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second?  You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Remember though, that number is the aggregate time for the mirror to both open and close.... and the pattern is not symmetrical as it takes the mirror less time to flip out of the way than it does to return. This would make the delay caused by the mirror to be 30ms (or less) on the 1DX.

So you push the shutter, the camera does AF and metering (non-deterministic amount of delay), then the shutter starts moving and 30ms (or slightly less) later the exposure starts. At the end of the exposure, the mirror starts to return and it takes 30ms (or slightly more) for the mirror to return. However, the camera is not sitting there waiting and doing nothing while the mirror returns, it is reading the sensor, processing the image, and storing it to memory and then transferring the image to card(s)..... which probably consumes most (or more) of that 30ms mirror return time.

And the A9? It still takes time to read the sensor, and it also takes time to process the images afterwards... Mirrorless may not offer as much speed advantage as one first thinks....

That said, I have a mirrorless P/S camera that will crank out 100FPS, but at a very reduced resolution. I think that it is safe to say that a sensor can be read in 10ms or under, but the real bottleneck seems to be processing data and storing it....

Things are never simple in a complex system.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:26:38 PM by Don Haines »
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timmy_650

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 10:25:22 PM »
If you live closer to a big city you might be able to find a day where they are demoing camera. When I lived in Sacramento the local camera store got the major camera brands to demo their gear for free at the zoo. I love playing with new gear.
I used the A7rII and liked it. (I normal shoot a Canon 6D) It was nice with the smaller lenses but if you put an F/2.8, I didn't care for it. It was nice to go from a 5Dm4 with a 100-400mkII to an A7rII with a 70-200 F4 weight wise.  There was things the camera did which annoyed me but was probably just settings like every picture I took it would show it to me in the view finder, which was nice when nothing was moving but really annoying when you were tracking something.
Before I used Sony I really wanted one but after, I didn't care for the system. If I didn't have any money into a system. I might choose sony but to switch over, it isn't worth it to me.
The thing I learned that day is all the new camera out there are great and I was kinda shocked how hard it was to tell files apart when just scrolling though them. That was comparing micro 4/3 systems, APS-C, full frame from 20mp to 50mp. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 11:31:26 PM »
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag?  Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms?  Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second?  You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Evidently you don't know what you were talking about.  You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout.  But the a9 doesn't capture an image at a zero delay from achieving focus.  If it's not using predictive AF, moving subjects will be frequently out of focus.  So, which is it – does the a9 use predictive AF, or does it miss shots of moving subjects?

Incidentally, the a9 takes a minimum of 20 ms from shutter press to image capture, with electronic first shutter and no focusing.  The 1D X takes a mimimum of 36 ms to do that, because of the mirror movement.  But per Imaging Resource testing, from center point AF to image capture is 216 ms on the a9, whereas through the VF on the 5DIV it's 165 ms, and a mere 85 ms on the 1D X II.  So, your claim of 'exceptionally fast AF' on the a9 is dead wrong by comparison to the Canon 5- and 1-series AF. 

It's great when people are enthused about something, but it's just sad when their enthusiasm blinds them to factual reality. 
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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 11:31:26 PM »

eoren1

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2017, 01:08:19 PM »
Went to Best Buy during lunch and had 10 minutes to play with display a7Rii

It is small in hand which can be a plus (mated to a small prime) and minus (with a 100-400)
Pretty intuitive except for figuring out how to focus - couldn’t figure out how to get focus points to show or selected.  The a7rIII will have a joystick which I use on the 5DmkIII and love
Putting on lens was the same - zoom was backwards

Might be worth a buy after early reviews are posted and reveal any issues
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bholliman

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2017, 02:36:44 PM »
Shoot landscapes/seascapes and sell prints.
Also shoot 10 and 12 year old kids playing sports - indoor basketball, dance as well as lacrosse, soccer

Things I wish I had with my Canon are a bigger sensor with more DR (I print 20x30+ not infrequently and have to enlarge in software before sending to the lab).  I briefly considered the 5DS R but FPS was way too low for kids sports.  My 5D mk III is barely able to catch decisive moments in faster sports.

Just curious why you seem to have ruled out the 5D MkIV?  Its certainly a very capable action camera with excellent AF for kids sports.  Based on the reviews of the A9 and A7rII, it doesn't appear Sony has caught up with Canon and Nikon DSLR's in the AF area yet, regardless of published specs.  Getting close, but still behind as far as I can see.

Sony has a 42mp sensor vs. 30 for the MkIV, but that's really not a huge difference in your final print size.  The MkIV's dynamic range is very close to the the Sony A7rII, so I assume it will be very close to the III as well.

With the Sony a7Riii specs now official, I have to admit to being very intrigued - especially with their 24-105 which is my workhorse lens.

Canon, Sigma, and Nikon (24-120) haven't succeeded yet in making an optically excellent 24-105/120 yet.  Will Sony's be better?  Time will tell.
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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2017, 02:36:44 PM »