December 15, 2017, 06:51:10 PM

Author Topic: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]  (Read 8390 times)

BillB

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 05:53:20 PM »
I am really in the need of sth. wider than 70mm to combine with the 70-200 4.0 IS and I really want a larger aperture + IS. The 50 1.4 IS would give me 7 stops more light without tripod (with 4 stop IS).
Two things are essential: moderate footprint of the lens and good max reproduction ratio of 1:4 or 1:5 to make it a good universal lens.
Price wise? 1000 bucks would be o.k. if it is "small", has a small close focus distance and gorgous IQ.

So, if I heard you right:

f/1.4
IS
Max mag 0.20x - 0.25x
Small design
Gorgeous IQ

Methinks you won't get all five of those in a non-L instrument.  I think future 50s are likely to be one or two of the following three directions:

Stay small --> it's a non-L 50 f/1.4 USM replacement

Go for sharpness --> it'll be huge pickle jar a la Otus or Art (this would be an L lens, see attached)

Go for magic --> heavy but compact ball of glass; sort of a straight sequel to the current 50L

But I do not believe you can shoot for the moon on sharpness, bokeh and in a compact format. Small size would limit how much magic or sharpness you can deliver without requiring Hubble telescope-like tolerancing and cost.

- A

In the stay small category there would seem to be four variables: f 1.4 max aperture, USM, IS and lowish price.  I am pretty sure that more than two of these four would likely be a stretch.

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 05:53:20 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2017, 06:20:17 PM »
In the stay small category there would seem to be four variables: f 1.4 max aperture, USM, IS and lowish price.  I am pretty sure that more than two of these four would likely be a stretch.

If you throw 'best possible sharpness' and 'magical bokeh' out the window then I think you absolutely can do any/all four of those on a sliding scale for the right price.

First, I drop small/large entirely out of the equation as a question.  If it will be non-L, I presume it will be a smaller double gauss design and not a retrofocus pickle jar like the Art/Otus.  A retrofocus non-L will outresolve the pants off the double gauss 50L, and I just don't see Canon upstaging its pro gear with enthusiast gear like that.  That's decision #1 for a non-L 50, and I think that decision was made long ago.  (Canon may go retrofocus someday, but that would be an L lens.)

So that leaves three choices -- [Max Aperture], [AF tech], [IS or no IS] -- and the price will reflect the outcome of those choices:

f/1.4 IS Ring USM = $899 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 IS Nano USM = $699 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 Nano USM = $499 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 STM = $399  --> No sale, I'd grab a 50L in defeat (I'd only take first party AF only for this kind of lens)

Make it f/1.8 above and possibly drop each of those by 20-30%, but I don't think they'll do that to argue for more premium/differentiation space with the stripped down nifty fifty 50mm f/1.8 STM.  I believe the latest rumors have locked in on the red one above.

- A
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 06:24:23 PM by ahsanford »

BillB

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 07:20:27 PM »
In the stay small category there would seem to be four variables: f 1.4 max aperture, USM, IS and lowish price.  I am pretty sure that more than two of these four would likely be a stretch.

If you throw 'best possible sharpness' and 'magical bokeh' out the window then I think you absolutely can do any/all four of those on a sliding scale for the right price.

First, I drop small/large entirely out of the equation as a question.  If it will be non-L, I presume it will be a smaller double gauss design and not a retrofocus pickle jar like the Art/Otus.  A retrofocus non-L will outresolve the pants off the double gauss 50L, and I just don't see Canon upstaging its pro gear with enthusiast gear like that.  That's decision #1 for a non-L 50, and I think that decision was made long ago.  (Canon may go retrofocus someday, but that would be an L lens.)

So that leaves three choices -- [Max Aperture], [AF tech], [IS or no IS] -- and the price will reflect the outcome of those choices:

f/1.4 IS Ring USM = $899 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 IS Nano USM = $699 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 Nano USM = $499 --> I would buy this
f/1.4 STM = $399  --> No sale, I'd grab a 50L in defeat (I'd only take first party AF only for this kind of lens)

Make it f/1.8 above and possibly drop each of those by 20-30%, but I don't think they'll do that to argue for more premium/differentiation space with the stripped down nifty fifty 50mm f/1.8 STM.  I believe the latest rumors have locked in on the red one above.

- A

Fair enough.  I forgot about nano USM.  I was thinking ring USM

ahsanford

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 07:38:39 PM »
Fair enough.  I forgot about nano USM.  I was thinking ring USM

Last EF + non-L + ring USM lens was the 24/28/35 IS triumvirate about 5 years ago. 

I think mid-grade non-L EF lenses are possibly done getting L-level AF technology.  I think the non-L 50 may very well get nano USM.

- A

mb66energy

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2017, 04:38:09 AM »
@ ahsanford & BillB

Thanks for your remarks, you can't get the OTUS, Sigma Art or
Tamron 45mm IQ in a small package at the current state of
art.

I think I had to explain what I meant with gorgeous IQ:
Good center sharpness + contrast @ f/1.4 + excellent IQ from f/2.0 on -- at
25mm aperture diameter there shoudn't be too much spherical aberration any
longer.

Then, I think, the other specs are possible at e.g. 1000EUR/USD.
Small design doesn't mean it has to be slightly larger than the forty shorty
 - based on the existing 50mm 1.4 a +10mm length & +10mm diameter increase
would be very acceptable (for me).

f/1.4
IS
Max mag 0.20x - 0.25x
Small design


With the OTUS they started retrofocus for longer focal lenghts (at least at ZEISS) but in my
opinion there must be a way to heal double gauss deficiencies with
(1) advanced lens surface design = aspherical lenses
(2) special glass variants with exotic dispersion curves (maybe including some organic compounds)
(3) modern mechanical enginieering which enables more complex movements of lens groups.

At the moment there is a strong movement in the lens industry / the customer demand that points
into the direction of excellent correction of all aberrations under all conditions - the compromise
is large footprint, large mass and high price. Maybe there is no room for a very usable lens
without the maximum possible correction of optical aberrations at the moment?

And the decision if it is an "L" lens or not isn't easy too ...
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Antono Refa

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2017, 05:48:39 AM »
At the moment there is a strong movement in the lens industry / the customer demand that points
into the direction of excellent correction of all aberrations under all conditions - the compromise
is large footprint, large mass and high price. Maybe there is no room for a very usable lens
without the maximum possible correction of optical aberrations at the moment?

I think it's half the story, the other one being sensor resolution.

I've often heard people say they bought the latest & great camera, say a 5DmkIV, they want lenses to match it's resolution to go with it. And that means no distortion, because distortion correction robs them of 10% of the resolution, or whichever optical aberration you can pick.

This means hobbyists expect new lenses to stand up to scrutiny for what used to be medium format standards.

Manufacturers would have a hard time getting customers down that tree.

BillB

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2017, 06:49:13 AM »
Fair enough.  I forgot about nano USM.  I was thinking ring USM

Last EF + non-L + ring USM lens was the 24/28/35 IS triumvirate about 5 years ago. 

I think mid-grade non-L EF lenses are possibly done getting L-level AF technology.  I think the non-L 50 may very well get nano USM.

- A


There haven't been that many fullframe primes of any kind since the wideangle triplets arrived five years ago.  There has been the 40mm pancake and the upgraded plastic fantastice, both of which are STM, but I am not sure what that tells us.

It seems to me that there are a couple of possible concepts for a new EF 50mm in the $500-$700 range.  One idea would be an upgraded version of the venerable 50mm f1.4, with fixed length, and hopefully some improvement in performance at f1.4.  The other would be a 50mm version of the 35mm f2.0 IS.

The 50mm upgrade would create distance from the plastic fantastic with its f1.4, but lack the IS (and IQ at f 1.4) to challenge a future 50mm L.  The 50mm version of the 35mm f2.0 IS would distance itself from the plastic fantastic with IS, along with something better than STM, but would be a stop slower than a future 50mm f1.4 L.  Either concept would result in a lens considerably lighter than a 50mm f1.4 L.

Using your numbers, it looks to me like either concept would price out around $500 with nano-USM and about $700 with ring USM.  I would think IQ at F 2.0 would be very important to the success of either concept.

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2017, 06:49:13 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2017, 07:16:40 AM »
At the moment there is a strong movement in the lens industry / the customer demand that points
into the direction of excellent correction of all aberrations under all conditions - the compromise
is large footprint, large mass and high price. Maybe there is no room for a very usable lens
without the maximum possible correction of optical aberrations at the moment?

I think it's half the story, the other one being sensor resolution.

I've often heard people say they bought the latest & great camera, say a 5DmkIV, they want lenses to match it's resolution to go with it. And that means no distortion, because distortion correction robs them of 10% of the resolution, or whichever optical aberration you can pick.

This means hobbyists expect new lenses to stand up to scrutiny for what used to be medium format standards.

Manufacturers would have a hard time getting customers down that tree.

Good point! Maybe the market is driven more by hobbyists searching for better technical IQ and less for equipment which helps to make photographs possible. I am too fascinated how far we can optimize systems today.

In my case I am searching for a to go lens which is portable and flexible. Flexible in terms of good low light capability for mostly static objects + good close focus capability to avoid switching to a macro lens.
Maybe I have to accept that I am NOT the market :)
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dolina

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2017, 02:43:51 PM »
24-70/2.8 IS
135/1.8 IS
a7S III rival (~12MP body with native ISO better than 819,200) without AA filter
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jolyonralph

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2017, 04:34:20 PM »
Canon won't replace the 50mm 1.4 NON-L.  They will have no need to.   For those on a tight budget the 50mm f/1.8 is a great lens.  When the 50mm f/1.4L IS comes out you can be pretty much guaranteed that the chances of a new 50mm f1/4 (especially one with IS) are almost zero.

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JMZawodny

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 06:48:35 PM »
600mm F4 DO would be fantastic.

+1  I concur.
When you are right you are the teacher, when you are wrong you are the student. A win-win scenario if ever there was one.

AJ

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2017, 07:46:51 PM »
 
Quote
No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
That's what my wife said to me

JMZawodny

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 10:20:11 PM »
Quote
No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
That's what my wife said to me

Heh, me too.  Will we listen?
When you are right you are the teacher, when you are wrong you are the student. A win-win scenario if ever there was one.

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 10:20:11 PM »

AJ

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2017, 11:41:23 AM »
Quote
No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
That's what my wife said to me

Heh, me too.  Will we listen?
CR3 so it's pretty serious

slclick

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 12:02:12 PM »
24-70/2.8 IS
135/1.8 IS
a7S III rival (~12MP body with native ISO better than 819,200) without AA filter

I'd snag a new Canon 135 in a heartbeat. IS or not, 1.8 or 2.0. As long as it's as good as the current one with better flare control I'm on it. Now if it's too much more than the Sigma forget it since that is an amazing chunk of glass from what I've read and seen.

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Re: No More New Photographic Gear From Canon in 2017 [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 12:02:12 PM »