February 23, 2018, 04:49:47 PM

Author Topic: What if Canon were no longer #1?  (Read 25778 times)

Aussie shooter

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #165 on: January 04, 2018, 05:22:05 PM »
If Canon were no longer #1, then they would be #2.

That is an assumption and therefore illogical  ;)

So Canon sits in the number one spot......

Another company passes them and takes over the number one spot.....

At that point. Canon is number two.....

This, of course, does not preclude another company then passing Canon and taking over the number two spot, so logically, if Canon slips from #1, they will then be #2 for however long or brief that stay is.

Not true. You are forgetting WHY canon are going to lose the number 1 spot. They are doomed remember. They will lose the spot because they are going to go out of business overnight due to the CEO having nightmares about SONY sneaking up behind them. They won't go to No2. They will disappear from the list altogether
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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #165 on: January 04, 2018, 05:22:05 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #166 on: January 04, 2018, 05:30:40 PM »
If Canon were no longer #1, then they would be #2.

That is an assumption and therefore illogical  ;)

So Canon sits in the number one spot......

Another company passes them and takes over the number one spot.....

At that point. Canon is number two.....

This, of course, does not preclude another company then passing Canon and taking over the number two spot, so logically, if Canon slips from #1, they will then be #2 for however long or brief that stay is.

Not true. You are forgetting WHY canon are going to lose the number 1 spot. They are doomed remember. They will lose the spot because they are going to go out of business overnight due to the CEO having nightmares about SONY sneaking up behind them. They won't go to No2. They will disappear from the list altogether

I disagree!

I think that Canon will buy Olympus, and print a pile of 1DX3 labels to put over top of the E-M1 Mark2 labels
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Aussie shooter

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #167 on: January 04, 2018, 05:31:15 PM »


Exactly. Which is why we continue to fight for competitive features from Canon because the system itself is superior.

The system is superior which why they have to fight to be competitive....run that by me again....

Ergonomics, lens selection is all better than the competition. DPAF is great. But other sensor tech and video features are lacking. Being #1 in sales means they’re not incentivized to adopt competitive video features or the processing power to keep up with them. One can only hope that their next generation of cameras (including the rumored FF mirrorless) will do so.

I don't really buy this argument. If being second was the incentive to improve the features that your superiors have over you then why do SONY refuse to make an ergonomically better product? Making a camera that most serious photographers cannot stand the feel of seems strange to me when it is obvious that they have decided the potential size advantage of mirrorless is lost in the pursuit of image quality(ie .quality lenses negating size benefits)
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ahsanford

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #168 on: January 04, 2018, 06:07:59 PM »
I don't really buy this argument. If being second was the incentive to improve the features that your superiors have over you then why do SONY refuse to make an ergonomically better product? Making a camera that most serious photographers cannot stand the feel of seems strange to me when it is obvious that they have decided the potential size advantage of mirrorless is lost in the pursuit of image quality(ie .quality lenses negating size benefits)

Just riffing:

1) Maybe Sony thinks their ergonomics are more on-target for the mirrorless community than SLR veteran skeptics like us might believe.  Sony may have its own data that says that a beefier / easier to hold bigger glass body is not what the market wants, that only a small percentage of A7/A9 owners want to put f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes on it, or that the product becomes decidedly less desirable to the target market if it is bigger than X.

2) Sony may want to 'minimize the new' and maximize the reusability of body componentry, batteries, etc. for cost or speed to market reasons.  That lets them focus on sensor/VF/AF/pipeline internals or possibly free up folks to design other types of camera bodies.

3) Sony has data that 'MORE HORSEPOWER MORE NOW GIMME MOOOOHAAHAHA' remains the #1 ask of their user base, and not designing a new body shape lets them dole out the drugs new bodies more quickly.

I personally don't know what glue they are sniffing with the A7R3 coming out with (ostensibly) an A9 / thicker but very similar grip A7R2 body.  The grip to mount side-to-side distance is too small for the GM lenses and the grip itself is not thick/chunky enough to shoot fast glass all day as comfortably as a CaNikon one.

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:10:03 PM by ahsanford »

bwud

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #169 on: January 04, 2018, 09:29:28 PM »

Just riffing:

2) Sony may want to 'minimize the new' and maximize the reusability of body componentry, batteries, etc. for cost or speed to market reasons.  That lets them focus on sensor/VF/AF/pipeline internals or possibly free up folks to design other types of camera bodies.

I think the reality is closer to: Sony leadership sites size (ie the ability to be small) as *the* number one advantage of the alpha mirrorless line over SLR. Right or wrong, that’s their strategy.

3) Sony has data that 'MORE HORSEPOWER MORE NOW GIMME MOOOOHAAHAHA' remains the #1 ask of their user base, and not designing a new body shape lets them dole out the drugs new bodies more quickly.

I personally don't know what glue they are sniffing with the A7R3 coming out with (ostensibly) an A9 / thicker but very similar grip A7R2 body.  The grip to mount side-to-side distance is too small for the GM lenses and the grip itself is not thick/chunky enough to shoot fast glass all day as comfortably as a CaNikon one.

I got a finger stuck once but I was holding the camera in a weird way. My hands are slightly above average per http://www.theaveragebody.com/average_hand_size.php. There is clearance to the GM bulge, but not much.

As for comfort, A7Riii is in my estimation no more comfortable than A7Rii. However with the vertical grip it’s much better. I don’t have to death grip it, it will just hang from my fingertips like my 5D3. Controls are well located though I still struggle with the rear dial (probsbly from decades using cameras without them).


Mikehit

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #170 on: January 05, 2018, 03:56:06 AM »


I think the reality is closer to: Sony leadership sites size (ie the ability to be small) as *the* number one advantage of the alpha mirrorless line over SLR. Right or wrong, that’s their strategy.

....


As for comfort, A7Riii is in my estimation no more comfortable than A7Rii. However with the vertical grip it’s much better. I don’t have to death grip it, it will just hang from my fingertips like my 5D3. Controls are well located though I still struggle with the rear dial (probsbly from decades using cameras without them).

So size is the number one factor in their appeal but you need a grip to make it comfortable. Adding cost as well.

Hmmm.....great design philosophy.

bwud

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »


I think the reality is closer to: Sony leadership sites size (ie the ability to be small) as *the* number one advantage of the alpha mirrorless line over SLR. Right or wrong, that’s their strategy.

....


As for comfort, A7Riii is in my estimation no more comfortable than A7Rii. However with the vertical grip it’s much better. I don’t have to death grip it, it will just hang from my fingertips like my 5D3. Controls are well located though I still struggle with the rear dial (probsbly from decades using cameras without them).

So size is the number one factor in their appeal but you need a grip to make it comfortable. Adding cost as well.

Hmmm.....great design philosophy.

It is what it is. In product development there are are often compromises made due to the weird whims of leadership.

I think Sony would be wise to make the alpha line about 1/2” taller. It would be far more manageable (I barely get two fingers on without the vertical grip), the battery capacity could increase significantly, etc. But until leadership changes, size is king.

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »

Talys

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #172 on: January 05, 2018, 01:51:50 PM »
So size is the number one factor in their appeal but you need a grip to make it comfortable. Adding cost as well.

Hmmm.....great design philosophy.

Keep in mind that some people don't rent/use before they buy.  Instead, they go to the camera store, where something like an A7RII/III feels pretty good with a relatively small lens attached.  Also, they're holding it for a thirty seconds at a time. "Wow, look, OMG, I can have a FF camera that feels like a point and shoot! How awesome is that!"


ahsanford

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2018, 02:08:00 PM »
Keep in mind that some people don't rent/use before they buy.  Instead, they go to the camera store, where something like an A7RII/III feels pretty good with a relatively small lens attached.  Also, they're holding it for a thirty seconds at a time. "Wow, look, OMG, I can have a FF camera that feels like a point and shoot! How awesome is that!"

...or they walk into B&H in Manhattan, play around with an A7R2 for about 10 seconds and realize what a fail the ergonomics are.  It was an pretty quick reality to absorb. 

Thanks for the pics, Bwud!

Working with that grip and working well with that grip are a different things.  I see Sony wheeling out a smaller crop body (non-7D) grip on their FF rigs -- it's a grip reminiscent of my old T1i.  You can shoot with it, but it's not comfortable.  A few prior posts on this:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33709.msg693701#msg693701

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33528.msg688331#msg688331

I continue to contend that the A7/A9 size is fine if you don't plan on using heavier non-monopodded/non-tripoded glass -- but in fairness, it is well designed for a the 'keep it small' shooter of the Fuji, EOS M or m43 mold who may not be slapping huge lenses on it. 

- A
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 02:10:20 PM by ahsanford »

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Re: What if Canon were no longer #1?
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2018, 02:08:00 PM »