February 22, 2018, 10:22:52 AM

Author Topic: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses  (Read 4030 times)

Ryananthony

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 07:10:09 PM »
I guess none of you have looked at Instagram lately, or paid much attention to general photography trends in the last five years or so. Selective focus is the big draw, and people want it faster and easier. Making a tilt-shift lens with IS makes perfect sense, if the size and weight can also be kept down. (So don't expect them to match the current TS-Es in resolving power, not that resolution matters for trendy photography.)

The first company that can make a tilt-shift, autofocus, stabilised, weather sealed, equivalent 24-35mm lens for an APS-C body at under 500g would pretty much take over all of Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook. And that is huge money.

Interesting thoughts as I have little or no knowledge of the platforms (Instagram etc) that you mention. However I do know that IS hampers AF performance so why would one want IS on short lenses? Add to this the set up time for a TSE lens and even AF becomes redundant. Even on my Canon 800 F5.6 L IS hand held IS is just a hindrance so on a short TSE lens? Looks pretty useless to me!

Again - am I missing something?

We get it, you don't like IS.

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 07:10:09 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 07:16:03 PM »
I guess none of you have looked at Instagram lately, or paid much attention to general photography trends in the last five years or so. Selective focus is the big draw, and people want it faster and easier. Making a tilt-shift lens with IS makes perfect sense, if the size and weight can also be kept down. (So don't expect them to match the current TS-Es in resolving power, not that resolution matters for trendy photography.)

The first company that can make a tilt-shift, autofocus, stabilised, weather sealed, equivalent 24-35mm lens for an APS-C body at under 500g would pretty much take over all of Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook. And that is huge money.

Interesting thoughts as I have little or no knowledge of the platforms (Instagram etc) that you mention. However I do know that IS hampers AF performance so why would one want IS on short lenses? Add to this the set up time for a TSE lens and even AF becomes redundant. Even on my Canon 800 F5.6 L IS hand held IS is just a hindrance so on a short TSE lens? Looks pretty useless to me!

Again - am I missing something?

We get it, you don't like IS.
The best camera is the one in your hands

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2018, 07:17:11 PM »
Interesting thoughts as I have little or no knowledge of the platforms (Instagram etc) that you mention. However I do know that IS hampers AF performance so why would one want IS on short lenses? Add to this the set up time for a TSE lens and even AF becomes redundant. Even on my Canon 800 F5.6 L IS hand held IS is just a hindrance so on a short TSE lens? Looks pretty useless to me!

Again - am I missing something?

Not everyone is shooting on a tripod, artificial light or strong ambient light.  In those circumstances, IS helps every focal length if your subject isn't moving.

Let's say in a low light environment a 24mm f/2 Lens without IS requires ISO 6400 @ f/2 @ 1/30s to get an appropriate exposure without shaky hands blurring the shot.

That same lens with 3 stops of IS allows you to:

  • Stop down for sharper image or to get more working DOF at the same exposure: f/5.6 @ ISO 6400 @ 1/4s, OR...

  • Walk the ISO back down to earth for better quality files with more latitude at the same exposure: f/2 @ ISO 800 @ 1/4s

Both of those things are super useful for the handheld shooter who didn't (or can't) bring light to the party.  This lets you shoot in worse light handheld, or possibly leave the shutter open longer for waterfalls, etc.

It's also terrific for video.

- A
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:40:46 PM by ahsanford »

aceflibble

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 08:39:34 PM »
Interesting thoughts as I have little or no knowledge of the platforms (Instagram etc) that you mention. However I do know that IS hampers AF performance so why would one want IS on short lenses? Add to this the set up time for a TSE lens and even AF becomes redundant. Even on my Canon 800 F5.6 L IS hand held IS is just a hindrance so on a short TSE lens? Looks pretty useless to me!

Again - am I missing something?
The others have already mostly answered, so I'll just put it like this: IS and AF on a TS-E is as as equally useless to you as an 800mm is to 99% of other people.

Also, IS aids AF, assuming both are implemented well. Try out the Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM sometime. It's only the early IS systems which held up AF.

johnf3f

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 09:10:01 PM »
I seem to have stirred up a Hornets nest! Not my intention.

What is confusing me is the utility/usefulness of IS on a TSE lens. To use the flexibility and focal plane advantages of these lenses they need to be set up carefully and in the same place and angle rather than wandering about on an unstable human. Hence a tripod (or similar support) is needed - so why IS?

As In said "Again - am I missing something?", I was looking for constructive observations as I cannot see any use for IS on this sort of lens - but that does not mean that there is no use, it just means that I cannot see it and was looking to be enlightened. Silly me!
Canon 1DX, 7D2, 16-35 F4 L IS, 24-70 F2.8 V2, 100 F2.8 Macro, 100-400 L IS Mk2, 300 F2.8 L IS, 800 F5.6 L IS, Holga Pinhole lens.

stevelee

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2018, 12:59:49 AM »
I can't imagine a scenario in which I would want to shoot a TS lens handheld. And even if I wanted to, I can't imagine being dextrous enough with only two hands to set it up.

I don't do Instagram, but I have been traveling over that last month, and it was remarkable watching people in some of the most scenic spots on earth mostly taking pictures of themselves. I conjecture that most of those pictures are destined for social media.

So maybe the idea is that a TS lens would be useful for making selfies?

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »
I seem to have stirred up a Hornets nest! Not my intention.

What is confusing me is the utility/usefulness of IS on a TSE lens. To use the flexibility and focal plane advantages of these lenses they need to be set up carefully and in the same place and angle rather than wandering about on an unstable human. Hence a tripod (or similar support) is needed - so why IS?

As In said "Again - am I missing something?", I was looking for constructive observations as I cannot see any use for IS on this sort of lens - but that does not mean that there is no use, it just means that I cannot see it and was looking to be enlightened. Silly me!

I presume people are using T/S lenses handheld -- I presume for non-architectural / non-product applications, like arty portraits, video, food, etc.

Once you leave the tripod, IS naturally makes sense for the reasons I stated above.

- A

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2018, 02:14:43 AM »
I can't imagine a scenario in which I would want to shoot a TS lens handheld. And even if I wanted to, I can't imagine being dextrous enough with only two hands to set it up.

I don't do Instagram, but I have been traveling over that last month, and it was remarkable watching people in some of the most scenic spots on earth mostly taking pictures of themselves. I conjecture that most of those pictures are destined for social media.

So maybe the idea is that a TS lens would be useful for making selfies?

Tried to find some arty handheld T/S stuff on Shutterdial but they don't have a T/S category.

But here are a few links of what people are doing with these things these days:

Portraits:  https://www.slrlounge.com/creating-artistic-portraits-using-tilt-shift-lens/
(can't confirm this was handheld, but I believe it may have been)

Because you don't want to use a tripod:  http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/hand-held-tiltshift/

Street:  https://www.flickr.com/groups/handheldtiltshiftphotography/pool/

Because you can't bring a tripod indoors sometimes: https://luminous-landscape.com/handholding-the-tiltshift-lens-on-dslrs/

- A

johnf3f

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 05:18:00 PM »
I seem to have stirred up a Hornets nest! Not my intention.

What is confusing me is the utility/usefulness of IS on a TSE lens. To use the flexibility and focal plane advantages of these lenses they need to be set up carefully and in the same place and angle rather than wandering about on an unstable human. Hence a tripod (or similar support) is needed - so why IS?

As In said "Again - am I missing something?", I was looking for constructive observations as I cannot see any use for IS on this sort of lens - but that does not mean that there is no use, it just means that I cannot see it and was looking to be enlightened. Silly me!

I presume people are using T/S lenses handheld -- I presume for non-architectural / non-product applications, like arty portraits, video, food, etc.

Once you leave the tripod, IS naturally makes sense for the reasons I stated above.

- A

I do about a third of my long lens photography hand held and most of my short lens photography is hand held. I use tripods for precise framing, playing around with filters, long exposures with a stopper on the front and where I am in one spot (hide etc) for a while. Whilst I am a tripod junkie - I prefer not to carry one unless I have to!

Without a tripod (I do not use IS with Tripods) I still find that I get sharper shots without IS. Naturally there is a limit to hand holding but shooting inside Medieval churches at F5.6 to F4 is still better with IS off (or not fitted). I still don't understand how IS would be useful if taking advantage of a TSE lens's capabilities.

If/when they come out I will certainly give them a go! Perhaps I will change my opinion - certainly possible, nothing is set in stone :)
Canon 1DX, 7D2, 16-35 F4 L IS, 24-70 F2.8 V2, 100 F2.8 Macro, 100-400 L IS Mk2, 300 F2.8 L IS, 800 F5.6 L IS, Holga Pinhole lens.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2018, 06:07:28 PM »
Without a tripod (I do not use IS with Tripods) I still find that I get sharper shots without IS. Naturally there is a limit to hand holding but shooting inside Medieval churches at F5.6 to F4 is still better with IS off (or not fitted). I still don't understand how IS would be useful if taking advantage of a TSE lens's capabilities.

If/when they come out I will certainly give them a go! Perhaps I will change my opinion - certainly possible, nothing is set in stone :)

Responding to the red bit above:

Decouple IS and T/S (and the big yet-to-be-done-lift of making those two technologies work together) from your mind. Treat them as independent animals:

  • T/S for perspective / selective focus / creative opportunities

  • IS allows for longer handheld shutters that are not blurry from hand shake

Now put them together.  You can do more with IS than without it.  Take any handheld shot you want to do without IS -- including a T/S one -- and hold the shutter open longer.  That's it. 

For example, with (say) 3 stops of IS, you could shoot your church shot at 8x less ISO or 3 stops narrower aperture for more DOF and net the same level of exposure:

Scenario A:  if your acceptable handheld church shot at f/4 with a T/S lens requires ISO 6400 to pull it off with a fast enough shutter to avoid hand shake, you could take the same shot with T/S IS lens at f/4 + ISO 800 and three times longer shutter.  ISO 800 output is a little easier on the eye / more latitude / less noise to manage in post.  That is a good thing.

Scenario B:  if your acceptable handheld church shot at f/4 with a T/S lens requires ISO 6400 to pull it off with a fast enough shutter to avoid hand shake, you could also take the same shot with T/S IS lens at f/11 + ISO 6400 and (again) three times longer shutter.  f/11 output gets you more working DOF and possibly some sun stars from the lighting.  That is also a good thing.

- A

« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 06:10:00 PM by ahsanford »

johnf3f

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2018, 10:00:45 PM »
Without a tripod (I do not use IS with Tripods) I still find that I get sharper shots without IS. Naturally there is a limit to hand holding but shooting inside Medieval churches at F5.6 to F4 is still better with IS off (or not fitted). I still don't understand how IS would be useful if taking advantage of a TSE lens's capabilities.

If/when they come out I will certainly give them a go! Perhaps I will change my opinion - certainly possible, nothing is set in stone :)

Responding to the red bit above:

Decouple IS and T/S (and the big yet-to-be-done-lift of making those two technologies work together) from your mind. Treat them as independent animals:

  • T/S for perspective / selective focus / creative opportunities

  • IS allows for longer handheld shutters that are not blurry from hand shake

Now put them together.  You can do more with IS than without it.  Take any handheld shot you want to do without IS -- including a T/S one -- and hold the shutter open longer.  That's it. 

For example, with (say) 3 stops of IS, you could shoot your church shot at 8x less ISO or 3 stops narrower aperture for more DOF and net the same level of exposure:

Scenario A:  if your acceptable handheld church shot at f/4 with a T/S lens requires ISO 6400 to pull it off with a fast enough shutter to avoid hand shake, you could take the same shot with T/S IS lens at f/4 + ISO 800 and three times longer shutter.  ISO 800 output is a little easier on the eye / more latitude / less noise to manage in post.  That is a good thing.

Scenario B:  if your acceptable handheld church shot at f/4 with a T/S lens requires ISO 6400 to pull it off with a fast enough shutter to avoid hand shake, you could also take the same shot with T/S IS lens at f/11 + ISO 6400 and (again) three times longer shutter.  f/11 output gets you more working DOF and possibly some sun stars from the lighting.  That is also a good thing.

- A

That was a long and interesting post - thanks for taking the time. I appreciate your insights.
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Antono Refa

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2018, 04:54:24 AM »
I can't imagine a scenario in which I would want to shoot a TS lens handheld. And even if I wanted to, I can't imagine being dextrous enough with only two hands to set it up.

I don't do Instagram, but I have been traveling over that last month, and it was remarkable watching people in some of the most scenic spots on earth mostly taking pictures of themselves. I conjecture that most of those pictures are destined for social media.

So maybe the idea is that a TS lens would be useful for making selfies?

Tried to find some arty handheld T/S stuff on Shutterdial but they don't have a T/S category.

But here are a few links of what people are doing with these things these days:

Portraits:  https://www.slrlounge.com/creating-artistic-portraits-using-tilt-shift-lens/
(can't confirm this was handheld, but I believe it may have been)

Because you don't want to use a tripod:  http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/hand-held-tiltshift/

Hand held without tilting, hence without the selective focus that is apparently so fashionable.

Street:  https://www.flickr.com/groups/handheldtiltshiftphotography/pool/

Those are impressive photos, but I doubt all of those photos were indeed taken without tripod graphy/]other rig[/url].

Because you can't bring a tripod indoors sometimes: https://luminous-landscape.com/handholding-the-tiltshift-lens-on-dslrs/

Again, hand held without tilting, and hence without selective focus.

Furthermore, I doubt the insta-crowd of social networks would drop a couple of grands on a tilt-shift lens.

RGF

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 11:57:16 AM »
I only use my TS on a tripod.  Thus IS would not be very useful.

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Re: Canon Continues To Research Putting IS into Tilt-Shift Lenses
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 11:57:16 AM »