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Author Topic: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]  (Read 20927 times)

Peer

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 11:38:55 PM »
One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.


This is also a point I'd make -- Canon has a huge full frame lens arsenal which will fit perfectly with full-sensor cameras.  I bet Canon is in the midst of strategizing when it comes to their hi-end cameras.

Quote
Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).


Well, keep in mind that 8/6/4k is currently not for the consumer per se -- it's for the post production.  E.g., shooting at 4/6/8k is like shooting with several focal-lenses at the same time since you'll then have more leverage to push in, pan across, stabilize and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p. 

-- peer


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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 11:38:55 PM »

sirbarton

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 02:19:28 PM »
Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.

Too much money thinking, too little innovation and customer understanding. The old "let's cover as many bases with mediocrity as humanly possible", instead of making a few very good items at a competitive price point.

Thankfully Canon lenses are easily used on other systems.

To be fair, the BM products are more like hack designs and hardly quality products. If you want a solid product it costs money to produce that, A camera is more than just a sensor and a lens mount. BM cameras are basically a sensor in a box where costs are cut by using off the shelf components and sticking them all together. Something that is holistically custom designed is obviously going to cost more.

Yes - This is why 99 out of a 100 DPs would still take a 1080P Alexa shooting ProRes 444 over any Black Magic Camera.  I wish Arri could make a prosumer camera....

bgoyette

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 08:59:53 PM »
One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.


This is also a point I'd make -- Canon has a huge full frame lens arsenal which will fit perfectly with full-sensor cameras.  I bet Canon is in the midst of strategizing when it comes to their hi-end cameras.

Quote
Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).


Well, keep in mind that 8/6/4k is currently not for the consumer per se -- it's for the post production.  E.g., shooting at 4/6/8k is like shooting with several focal-lenses at the same time since you'll then have more leverage to push in, pan across, stabilize and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p. 

-- peer

I really think the 6k/8k bandwagon is simply this: an ultra-niche concept that of course all the entitled 22 year olds that "own" dragons are just going to have to have. There are few places that need that kind of bandwidth, and even fewer systems that will be able to handle it, all so what?..we don't have to make framing decisions or hold our cameras properly? Sorry if I sound like an old man, ( I am)...but it's ridiculous.

Look I've owned digital Hasselblads for over a decade. I know for resolution. I'm in the biz of shooting and printing very large photos that are viewed very close. I'm a relative niche player in a field where there are thousands of producers who actually need that type of resolution (as opposed to millions that don't). I'd never suggest to my flickr pals that they need 40/50/60 MP so they can show off on the internet. The only people who will ever need 6k and 8k are doing some awfully high end compositing work, or are exhibiting in IMAX(sure Johnny...you'll see your pictures on that big screen someday). Peter Jackson can order as many as he wants, but there's absolutely no reason why some kid shooting music videos would ever need it.(or really ever be able to focus it!)...but it sure sells some Reds. For quite some time in the future, we'll see the VAST majority of 4k users finishing their projects in 2k or HD.... I simply don't see Canon going there (6k/8k) for any reason, not now, and probably not for a long time, (other than to make a hybrid video/still camera that finalizes the convergence of the two mediums.).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 12:38:55 PM by bgoyette »

Tugela

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2015, 01:14:29 AM »
One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.


This is also a point I'd make -- Canon has a huge full frame lens arsenal which will fit perfectly with full-sensor cameras.  I bet Canon is in the midst of strategizing when it comes to their hi-end cameras.

Quote
Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).


Well, keep in mind that 8/6/4k is currently not for the consumer per se -- it's for the post production.  E.g., shooting at 4/6/8k is like shooting with several focal-lenses at the same time since you'll then have more leverage to push in, pan across, stabilize and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p. 

-- peer

I really think the 6k/8k bandwagon is simply this: an ultra-niche concept that of course all the entitled 22 year olds that "own" dragons are just going to have to have. There are few places that need that kind of bandwidth, and even fewer systems that will be able to handle it, all so what?..we don't have to make framing decisions or hold our cameras properly? Sorry if I sound like an old man, ( I am)...but it's ridiculous.

Look I've owned digital Hasselblads for over a decade. I know for resolution. I'm in the biz of shooting and printing very large photos that are viewed very close. I'm a relative niche player in a field where there are thousands of producers who actually need that type of resolution (as opposed to millions that don't). I'd never suggest to my flickr pals that they need 40/50/60 MP so they can show off on the internet. The only people who will ever need 6k and 8k are doing some awfully high end compositing work, or are exhibiting in IMAX(sure Johnny...you'll see your pictures on that big screen someday). Peter Jackson can order as many as he wants, but there's absolutely no reason why some kid shooting music videos would ever need it.(or really ever be able to focus it!)...but it sure sells some Reds. For quite some time in the future, we'll see the VAST majority of 4k users finishing their projects in 2k or HD.... I simply don't see Canon going there (6k/8k) for any reason, not now, and probably not for a long time, (other than to make a hybrid video/still camera that finalizes the convergence of the two mediums.).

All of my footage from here on in will be finished in 4K. I'm not shooting anything in HD anymore.

bgoyette

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2015, 02:08:01 AM »
One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.


This is also a point I'd make -- Canon has a huge full frame lens arsenal which will fit perfectly with full-sensor cameras.  I bet Canon is in the midst of strategizing when it comes to their hi-end cameras.

Quote
Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).


Well, keep in mind that 8/6/4k is currently not for the consumer per se -- it's for the post production.  E.g., shooting at 4/6/8k is like shooting with several focal-lenses at the same time since you'll then have more leverage to push in, pan across, stabilize and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p. 

-- peer

I really think the 6k/8k bandwagon is simply this: an ultra-niche concept that of course all the entitled 22 year olds that "own" dragons are just going to have to have. There are few places that need that kind of bandwidth, and even fewer systems that will be able to handle it, all so what?..we don't have to make framing decisions or hold our cameras properly? Sorry if I sound like an old man, ( I am)...but it's ridiculous.

Look I've owned digital Hasselblads for over a decade. I know for resolution. I'm in the biz of shooting and printing very large photos that are viewed very close. I'm a relative niche player in a field where there are thousands of producers who actually need that type of resolution (as opposed to millions that don't). I'd never suggest to my flickr pals that they need 40/50/60 MP so they can show off on the internet. The only people who will ever need 6k and 8k are doing some awfully high end compositing work, or are exhibiting in IMAX(sure Johnny...you'll see your pictures on that big screen someday). Peter Jackson can order as many as he wants, but there's absolutely no reason why some kid shooting music videos would ever need it.(or really ever be able to focus it!)...but it sure sells some Reds. For quite some time in the future, we'll see the VAST majority of 4k users finishing their projects in 2k or HD.... I simply don't see Canon going there (6k/8k) for any reason, not now, and probably not for a long time, (other than to make a hybrid video/still camera that finalizes the convergence of the two mediums.).

All of my footage from here on in will be finished in 4K. I'm not shooting anything in HD anymore.

It's great that you are a true believer. But.. What percentage of your clients require or even accept 4k delivery?  Just curious.

Ebrahim Saadawi

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2015, 02:26:26 AM »
I understand people here are much more into photography and know lots more about that than I do, so to deliver the point of 6/8K video:

1080p is 2 megapixel frames
4K is 8 megapixel frames
6K is 20 megapixel frames
8K is 34 megapixel frames

Wanting higher resolution in video is the same reason you guys want to shoot 8mp instead of 2, it's just better and bigger, giving more versatlity and better IQ all things being equal. Once you start shooting 4k for 1080p delivery, you'll never go back, it's a very very attractive concept with lots of benefits, now I don't like shooting at 1080p and deliver at the exact same resolution, especially when most cameras are not even real 1080p. It's a bit confining.

-For the same reason I and all broadcasters shoot HD for SD television
-and why we shoot 4K for 1080p delivery
-people who deliver at 4k want to shoot at 6K

8K? well that's a bit over the top. Imagine how huge of a machine and how big of a file if there was a camera that shot D810 images at 24fps for hours continuously. It will happen someday but not now, not even in 5 years, it's overkill just like 36mp D800 stills are overkill for most needs. 20 is the maximum sweet spot in my opinion. And 8 4K) is the sweet spot for 95% of needs. 2? well it's a bit too small now.

Canon now have video camera competition in the market from 400$ to 16K$, the entry level to Pro F5/Scarlet/FS7 market, what they lack now and what I believe they must be preparing for is a high end one to compete with the Alexa, Weapon and 35mm film for feature/hollywood dominance. I know for a fact that Canon's policy is dominating the cinema market and being ''the'' top end product in the industry, displacing the competitor we all know and love.

So that's where the C500 will fit, an Alexa rival.

Fortunately, Canon has already set the bar very high with the C300II, which is a
ower end model, in having 4K, 15 stops of DR, super slowmotion, industry-adored colours, effecient ProRes-like codec as well as a few extras like Dual Pixel AF and size, something nonody else have. In that sense, the C300II on paper is in fact ajrad of the alexa and a worthy rival. but as we all know, specs are not everything, and the top-end DPs know that fact, so that's what Canon should aim at with the next C500, aim at what makes the Alexa popular,

-The colour science
-DR, especially highlight rendition
-Incrideble robustness, FAR higher than C300
-Effecient ProRes codec in addition of internal ArriRaw
-High frame rates

and in case of the Alexa 65, all of that plus large format and super high resolution.

So Canon should address all of these, both the Alexa & Alexa 65 and Alexa Mini and Amira specs and versatility all in one product.

-It must be rugged, steel rugged, and size is not and issue, neither is weight.
-It must have great DR and Highlight handling, skin and overal film feel
-If they want to address the Alexa65 as well, they can go for a Full Frame sensor, a scaled up 35mm 6K sensor from the C300II, with 15 stops of DR and large image format.
-It must have an industry effecient codec, XF-AVC and XAVC are proofing to be ProRea like so that's covered.
-It must have internal Raw recording to large media.
-It must have high frame rates, at both 4K and 1080p. 4K 120p (which current C500 doea) and at least 240p at 1080p.
-To kill the Amira as well, it can be shoulder mounted with great ergonomics.

*Price does not matter here, just make it happen.Give us a 35mm rival camera like the Alexa, that's what the top end needs and wants.

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Re: EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2015, 02:26:26 AM »