June 18, 2018, 02:08:56 AM

Author Topic: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7  (Read 10573 times)

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2018, 05:10:46 PM »
Sorry, but neither of those shots are sharp, particularly the flight shot is noticeably soft.  If you are intending to show the utility of the T3 for birds and/or birds in flight, these examples aren’t helping your case.

Actually you’re making my case quite well for me, the 24MP sensor of the new T7 is a huge functional upgrade over older bodies.
I’m well aware that the 400f5.6 isn’t being done justice with the T3.

The point of showing the pigeon is that the old 9 point AF systems aren’t completely useless.

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2018, 05:10:46 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2018, 05:36:34 PM »
Sorry, but neither of those shots are sharp, particularly the flight shot is noticeably soft.  If you are intending to show the utility of the T3 for birds and/or birds in flight, these examples aren’t helping your case.

Actually you’re making my case quite well for me, the 24MP sensor of the new T7 is a huge functional upgrade over older bodies.
I’m well aware that the 400f5.6 isn’t being done justice with the T3.

The point of showing the pigeon is that the old 9 point AF systems aren’t completely useless.

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp?  The problem with your shots isn't resolution, it's focus...bad focus.

(Oh, and while 12 MP to 24 MP may be a 'huge upgrade', the difference between 24 MP and the 20 MP of the 7DII is not really significant, and the 7DII is a whole helluva lot more functional than the T7.)

If you're happy with the pigeon image, then I'm glad.  For me, both images would have been deleted at first review, with no hesitation.  Missed focus is a missed shot, and those are clear misses.  I'm not saying the 9-pt AF systems are useless, but that's because I know they can do far better than your images.  If those shots were the best a 9-pt AF could do (particularly with a lens like the 400/5.6L), then that camera would go in the trash bin along with those images.

Here's one more example, shot with a T1i/500D (9-pt AF). Compare to your previous shots, and hopefully this time my point will sink in.

"Mallard at Sunset"

Rebel T1i, EF 300mm f/4L IS USM, 1/500 s, f/4, ISO 200
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tron

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2018, 07:41:31 PM »
I believe the one above the flying pigeon is a very near miss. Which means it could have been resolved by a series of many shots focused on the same or different points by moving the camera a little. That way it would mimic AFMA. Even with my 7D2 I take a few pictures to be on the safe side since I have to magnify bird shots at 100% due to distance (even at 400,500 or 560mm).

That trick works for me.  9VIII I do not believe you have anything to lose trying it and there is always the delete button if the result isn't worthy.   

yjchua95

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2018, 10:42:20 PM »
Sorry, but neither of those shots are sharp, particularly the flight shot is noticeably soft.  If you are intending to show the utility of the T3 for birds and/or birds in flight, these examples aren’t helping your case.

Actually you’re making my case quite well for me, the 24MP sensor of the new T7 is a huge functional upgrade over older bodies.
I’m well aware that the 400f5.6 isn’t being done justice with the T3.

The point of showing the pigeon is that the old 9 point AF systems aren’t completely useless.

*facepalm*

Resolution and lens isn't the limiting factor here. 12MP is more than enough, and the 400mm f/5.6L is far better than any lens than I currently have.

It's your focusing skills and/or AF performance getting in the way.

This here was shot using the center AF point, AI servo using back button focusing, 100mm f/2.8L macro on a 9-point system too, at 12MP.

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9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2018, 02:35:33 AM »
hopefully this time my point will sink in.

You got twice as close to the subject, congratulations on giving a completely irrelevant example. (Just like the bird shot with the 100f2.8 Macro.)

I’ll upload a RAW file in a few days when I have access to them again.

the 7DII is a whole helluva lot more functional than the T7.)

The functionality of the T7 is infinitely better as long as the 7D2 is left sitting on a shelf because it’s too big.
The SL2 with the internals of the 7D2 (or as close as they can get) would be the ultimate wildlife camera.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 02:43:51 AM by 9VIII »

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2018, 03:00:32 AM »

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp? 

Yes.



Here's one more example, shot with a T1i/500D (9-pt AF). Compare to your previous shots, and hopefully this time my point will sink in.

"Mallard at Sunset"

Rebel T1i, EF 300mm f/4L IS USM, 1/500 s, f/4, ISO 200

Here’s the sharpness of the T3 vs. The T1i, I’m pretty sure the Owl shot with the T3 is focused about as well as possible.

(EDIT: Ok I looked again, I can see the leaves in the background are sharper than the owls, I must have chosen this phtot for the pose over sharpness.
Which does not change the fact that the 12MP T3 sensor is the bottleneck in IQ on that lens/body combination)


https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=760&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=458&CameraComp=488&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 11:28:05 AM by 9VIII »

yjchua95

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2018, 03:54:09 AM »

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp? 

Yes.



Here's one more example, shot with a T1i/500D (9-pt AF). Compare to your previous shots, and hopefully this time my point will sink in.

"Mallard at Sunset"

Rebel T1i, EF 300mm f/4L IS USM, 1/500 s, f/4, ISO 200

Here’s the sharpness of the T3 vs. The T1i, I’m pretty sure the Owl shot with the T3 is focused about as well as possible.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=760&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=458&CameraComp=488&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

Lemme just put it this way.

See the peacock here?

That was with an 18MP EOS 60D (9-point AF, all cross type).

And it's nowhere sharp. Simply because it was out of focus (and the lens didn't help either, it was a crappy Tamron 18-270mm first-generation, shot at 77mm).

That bird with the 100mm macro was actually further away, mind you (and with the same camera too, but downsampled to a lower resolution).

Waste your money if you must on a better body, it's your money after all. I'm just telling you that a better body won't magically make your shots better. You're far from hitting the limitations of your 1100D/T3.

Here's a sample with a 1100D/T3: https://500px.com/photo/147007539/eurasian-tree-sparrow-by-laura-lehtola

And it's pretty good. Shot at 400mm too, and considering the size of the bird relative to the frame, the distance would've been just as far. Distances with these type of shots wouldn't affect sharpness.
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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2018, 03:54:09 AM »

tron

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2018, 06:25:53 AM »
hopefully this time my point will sink in.

You got twice as close to the subject, congratulations on giving a completely irrelevant example. (Just like the bird shot with the 100f2.8 Macro.)

I’ll upload a RAW file in a few days when I have access to them again.

the 7DII is a whole helluva lot more functional than the T7.)

The functionality of the T7 is infinitely better as long as the 7D2 is left sitting on a shelf because it’s too big.
The SL2 with the internals of the 7D2 (or as close as they can get) would be the ultimate wildlife camera.
7D2 is not too big! And yes SL2 is a nice little camera but it does not have AFMA unfortunately.
In case you are interested I have made some focusing suggestions above that may - or may not - help to mitigate the lack of AFMA (at least for static subjects).

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2018, 11:36:09 AM »

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp? 

Yes.



Here's one more example, shot with a T1i/500D (9-pt AF). Compare to your previous shots, and hopefully this time my point will sink in.

"Mallard at Sunset"

Rebel T1i, EF 300mm f/4L IS USM, 1/500 s, f/4, ISO 200

Here’s the sharpness of the T3 vs. The T1i, I’m pretty sure the Owl shot with the T3 is focused about as well as possible.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=760&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=458&CameraComp=488&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

Lemme just put it this way.

See the peacock here?

That was with an 18MP EOS 60D (9-point AF, all cross type).

And it's nowhere sharp. Simply because it was out of focus (and the lens didn't help either, it was a crappy Tamron 18-270mm first-generation, shot at 77mm).

That bird with the 100mm macro was actually further away, mind you (and with the same camera too, but downsampled to a lower resolution).

Waste your money if you must on a better body, it's your money after all. I'm just telling you that a better body won't magically make your shots better. You're far from hitting the limitations of your 1100D/T3.

Here's a sample with a 1100D/T3: https://500px.com/photo/147007539/eurasian-tree-sparrow-by-laura-lehtola

And it's pretty good. Shot at 400mm too, and considering the size of the bird relative to the frame, the distance would've been just as far. Distances with these type of shots wouldn't affect sharpness.

Using a downsampled 18MP image is nothing like using a 12MP sensor, you guys are doing a really bad job of dismantling my argument.

However, I do see now that it’s OOF (leaves in the background are sharp), probably a rookie mistake, but as they say “Content is King”. There’s also another hundred or so shots I can pick from out of that batch so I’m sure I can find one that isn’t as bad.

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2018, 11:45:07 AM »
hopefully this time my point will sink in.

You got twice as close to the subject, congratulations on giving a completely irrelevant example. (Just like the bird shot with the 100f2.8 Macro.)

I’ll upload a RAW file in a few days when I have access to them again.

the 7DII is a whole helluva lot more functional than the T7.)

The functionality of the T7 is infinitely better as long as the 7D2 is left sitting on a shelf because it’s too big.
The SL2 with the internals of the 7D2 (or as close as they can get) would be the ultimate wildlife camera.
7D2 is not too big! And yes SL2 is a nice little camera but it does not have AFMA unfortunately.
In case you are interested I have made some focusing suggestions above that may - or may not - help to mitigate the lack of AFMA (at least for static subjects).


I vaguely remember experimenting with using single shot and continuous autofocus during that shooting session, I think my conclusion was continuous does a bad job of getting things steadily in focus, at least on this camera, which may be one of the valid criticisms of the 9 point AF system on a cheap body. Single Shot AF is solid though.

tron

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2018, 12:18:24 PM »
hopefully this time my point will sink in.

You got twice as close to the subject, congratulations on giving a completely irrelevant example. (Just like the bird shot with the 100f2.8 Macro.)

I’ll upload a RAW file in a few days when I have access to them again.

the 7DII is a whole helluva lot more functional than the T7.)

The functionality of the T7 is infinitely better as long as the 7D2 is left sitting on a shelf because it’s too big.
The SL2 with the internals of the 7D2 (or as close as they can get) would be the ultimate wildlife camera.
7D2 is not too big! And yes SL2 is a nice little camera but it does not have AFMA unfortunately.
In case you are interested I have made some focusing suggestions above that may - or may not - help to mitigate the lack of AFMA (at least for static subjects).


I vaguely remember experimenting with using single shot and continuous autofocus during that shooting session, I think my conclusion was continuous does a bad job of getting things steadily in focus, at least on this camera, which may be one of the valid criticisms of the 9 point AF system on a cheap body. Single Shot AF is solid though.
My suggestion is AF mode (One shot or servo) and Shooting mode (Single or continuous) independent. I suggest that you do a kind of focus bracketing by focusing in points near the bird, some just a little closer and some just a little behind in addition (of course) to exactly on the bird. OK all these assuming that the bird is static of course. In the best case you will get more/better keepers. In the worst you will just delete the extra shots afterwards.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2018, 12:58:17 PM »

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp? 

Yes.

Oh, ok then.  Buy a T7.  It will make your bird pictures much, much better.

Belief >> reality.   ;)


I’m pretty sure the Owl shot with the T3 is focused about as well as possible.

(EDIT: Ok I looked again, I can see the leaves in the background are sharper than the owls, I must have chosen this phtot for the pose over sharpness.

Yes, well...that was obvious from the start, which is why I blamed poor focusing for the blurry shot. Do you think more MP would have fixed the focus problem?  :o  The pigeon is even more OOF, by the way. 


...you guys are doing a really bad job of dismantling my argument.

The one who's done the best job of dismantling your argument is...you.  Your initial point was that the T3 is good for birds and works for birds in flight, too...and you supported that argument with blurry, mis-focused images. 

As for the T7 vs. 7DII argumant, while the T7 may be a much better choice for bird photography for some people, for reasons of size or cost, the 7DII is quite clearly the better camera for that use case. Period.
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yjchua95

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2018, 06:11:31 PM »

Using a downsampled 18MP image is nothing like using a 12MP sensor, you guys are doing a really bad job of dismantling my argument.

However, I do see now that it’s OOF (leaves in the background are sharp), probably a rookie mistake, but as they say “Content is King”. There’s also another hundred or so shots I can pick from out of that batch so I’m sure I can find one that isn’t as bad.

Then can you try dismantling that image on 500px as to why that person could shoot so much sharper, on a similar lens? Granted, it's a 100-400, but shot at 400/5.6 and should be slightly worse given that it's not a prime.

Focus mate, focus. On your camera, you really should just use AI Servo and remap the exposure lock button for continuous AF. Back button focusing helps a lot. And just use the center AF point, that's the only point that is cross-type on your camera.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 06:15:38 PM by yjchua95 »
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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2018, 06:11:31 PM »

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2018, 11:40:40 PM »

Lol, so more MP will make a blurry image sharp? 

Yes.

Oh, ok then.  Buy a T7.  It will make your bird pictures much, much better.

Belief >> reality.   ;)


I’m pretty sure the Owl shot with the T3 is focused about as well as possible.

(EDIT: Ok I looked again, I can see the leaves in the background are sharper than the owls, I must have chosen this phtot for the pose over sharpness.

Yes, well...that was obvious from the start, which is why I blamed poor focusing for the blurry shot. Do you think more MP would have fixed the focus problem?  :o  The pigeon is even more OOF, by the way. 


...you guys are doing a really bad job of dismantling my argument.

The one who's done the best job of dismantling your argument is...you.  Your initial point was that the T3 is good for birds and works for birds in flight, too...and you supported that argument with blurry, mis-focused images. 

As for the T7 vs. 7DII argumant, while the T7 may be a much better choice for bird photography for some people, for reasons of size or cost, the 7DII is quite clearly the better camera for that use case. Period.

Actually I can’t tell if the pigeon shot is front focused or back focused, it looks to me like the right wing is the sharpest thing in the frame. The right wingtips and left wing are blurrier than the center of the right wing. The eye of the animal isn’t in focus but at least part of the bird is in focus.
It certainly is a bird flying and the T3 can track it, which is something that few other systems in this price range can accomplish.

The T3/T5/T6/T7/4000D are all a huge improvement over any cellphone or point and shoot camera, that’s the point.
Only a few P&S Superzooms could have matched the owl shot, and I would wager even the best compact Zuperzoom would not have got anything close to the pigeon shot.

Going from zero capability to “some” capability is always the best investment you can make, everything from there is diminishing returns.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 11:45:14 PM by 9VIII »

9VIII

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2018, 02:32:14 AM »
Here's some RAW files and JPEGs.

https://ln.sync.com/dl/1012f2ad0/tnxvhime-u4iuxtng-vvjvr7ra-ug7pvbe7
Password: bird

4858 is the original file I posted, it's not "as" sharp as 4859, but very nearly so, and 4859 is effectively equal to 4917, which looks to be the sharpest photo in that batch.
Even if having more resolution couldn't possibly make 4858 any sharper, the 12MP I have isn't enough to significantly differentiate the shots that are in focus from the ones that are slightly off.
4897 is there to show that my AF was wandering between front focus and back focus, probably half the shots out of the 100+ that I took are as sharp as 4858, which "for this camera" is "acceptably sharp", and about 20% are sharper than 4858.

For demonstration, 4863 is actually as back focused as everyone is "saying" 4858 is.
Clearly Neuro and everyone else saying 4858 is OOF have either forgotten or never experienced how bad 12MP really is.

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Re: Images and Specifications for the Canon EOS 2000D/EOS Rebel T7
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2018, 02:32:14 AM »