June 25, 2018, 04:22:42 AM

Author Topic: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information  (Read 8527 times)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22715
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 03:53:17 PM »
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.

But E-TTL cannot measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface so this has to be handled by the flash to mix the direct and bounced fractions of light correctly.

I didn't mean to imply that E-TTL measures the reflectivity.  But the reflectivity of the bounce surface determines how much bounced light reaches the subject, and E-TTL determines exposure based on light reflected from the subject. In that way, E-TTL 'handles' the reflectivity of the bounce surface.

What 'direct fraction' are you talking about mixing?  If the head is elevated, it's all bounced (well, except for spill, but again, E-TTL handles that). 

I'm not sure why people think that this 'AI auto bounce' feature is addressing flash exposure...that's what E-TTL does. The point is, E-TTL cares about how much light reflects back from the subject, not how that light gets to the subject.  Whether direct or bounced, coming from one flash or 12 flashes, it doesn't matter.  The point of this feature seems exactly as described: determining the optimal bounce position to eliminate unnecessary shadows.

Also, consider this: the exposure calculations are done based on a pre-flash, which occurs with almost no temporal separation from the actual exposure.  The electric head rotation motor isn't going to move the flash head instantaneously.  In other words, the AI auto bounce head movement will happen before the pre-flash/exposure sequence.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 03:53:17 PM »

mb66energy

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 906
    • My Homepage
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 06:03:22 PM »
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.

But E-TTL cannot measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface so this has to be handled by the flash to mix the direct and bounced fractions of light correctly.

I didn't mean to imply that E-TTL measures the reflectivity.  But the reflectivity of the bounce surface determines how much bounced light reaches the subject, and E-TTL determines exposure based on light reflected from the subject. In that way, E-TTL 'handles' the reflectivity of the bounce surface.

What 'direct fraction' are you talking about mixing?  If the head is elevated, it's all bounced (well, except for spill, but again, E-TTL handles that). 

I'm not sure why people think that this 'AI auto bounce' feature is addressing flash exposure...that's what E-TTL does. The point is, E-TTL cares about how much light reflects back from the subject, not how that light gets to the subject.  Whether direct or bounced, coming from one flash or 12 flashes, it doesn't matter.  The point of this feature seems exactly as described: determining the optimal bounce position to eliminate unnecessary shadows.

Also, consider this: the exposure calculations are done based on a pre-flash, which occurs with almost no temporal separation from the actual exposure.  The electric head rotation motor isn't going to move the flash head instantaneously.  In other words, the AI auto bounce head movement will happen before the pre-flash/exposure sequence.

I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.
And a 30 degree angle - measured against the optical axis of the lens - should emit a substantial fraction of direct light onto the object but a substantial fraction of bounced light (if there is a bounce surface).
The round thing (upper right corner of reflector section) is maybe a sensor to do this: E.g. a small LIDAR which (1) measures distance, (2) can also obtain reflectivity data and (3) scan the room geometry by scanning the distance during a sweep of the head.
Most used tools: EOS 200D + EF-S 60mm + EF 100mm Macro + EF f/2.0 100  + 4.0 / 70-200 IS

brad-man

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1195
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2018, 06:44:50 PM »
So what's the deal? The motor sucks so much juice from the batteries that they didn't want to include RT functionality? So this thing has less than half the power of the 430-RT and costs 60% more. I wonder who would choose this flash over the 430?

tron

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3426
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2018, 07:19:46 PM »
I do not believe that the flash will be very AI at the end. Probably more like N.S.  ;D

P.S Feel free to ask for clarifications about the acronym  :D
Very helpful Hint: It is the opposite of AI  ;D ;D ;D

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22715
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2018, 07:56:46 PM »
I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.

I thkn you're sounding like those who saw the 'dual-sensing IS' feature on the M50 and concluded that it has IBIS: reading too much into this.

Quote
With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows.

The goal is to eliminate unnecessary shadows, which is a geometry problem. The solution requires knowing the distance to the subject (which the lens provides, that's E-TTL II), and the distance to the bounce surface (which, presumably, is what the sensor on the front of the flash head measures). 

Sure, it's possible that the flash measures the reflectivity, color, angle (not all ceilings are flat), temperature, roughness, and/or Rayleigh scattering properties of the bounce surface. But I'll bet it measures only distance. That would cover the case where someone tries to use it under the open sky, or under a 40' ceiling. 
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

wsmith96

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 887
  • Advancing Amateur
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2018, 08:10:41 PM »
Sounds like something else that will break.
What I do today is important because I am exchanging a day of my life for it.
60D | 80D | 5D | 10-22 | Rokinon 14 2.8 | 35 IS | 17-55 | 24-105L | 50 1.4 | 60 Macro | 85 1.8 | 100 2.8L Macro | 70-200 2.8L Mk II | 100-400L Mk II | 430EX II x 3 | ST-E2 | 270EX | 1.4 Extender III

Jim Saunders

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1062
    • HHA Photo
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2018, 09:38:46 PM »
So it does a thing, but is that thing useful?  At first glance I don't think so, but the improved display sounds like a start for the 600EX-RT III.

Show me an ST-E4-RT that has plain old mechanical dials or discrete buttons for the power level of each group and a bracket that tips up so you can see the (ahem) thing and I'll get excited.

Jim
A good image might fit entirely into the histogram, might not.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2018, 09:38:46 PM »

Chaitanya

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 791
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2018, 11:18:07 PM »
Looks interesting not sure if the AIB will be another gimmic or something that actually works fine.

Adelino

  • EOS Rebel T7i
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2018, 11:31:08 PM »
Canon are generally not too gimmicky. I will be interested to find out more about this flash.

mb66energy

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 906
    • My Homepage
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2018, 04:07:18 AM »
I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.

I thkn you're sounding like those who saw the 'dual-sensing IS' feature on the M50 and concluded that it has IBIS: reading too much into this.

Back to the facts ... below

Quote
With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows.

The goal is to eliminate unnecessary shadows, which is a geometry problem. The solution requires knowing the distance to the subject (which the lens provides, that's E-TTL II), and the distance to the bounce surface (which, presumably, is what the sensor on the front of the flash head measures). 

Sure, it's possible that the flash measures the reflectivity, color, angle (not all ceilings are flat), temperature, roughness, and/or Rayleigh scattering properties of the bounce surface. But I'll bet it measures only distance. That would cover the case where someone tries to use it under the open sky, or under a 40' ceiling.

My argument against measuring only the distance is that there is no substantial difference between open sky or a black ceiling at 3m distance.

My idea of a tiny LIDAR in the flash could report reflectivity of the bounce surface as a side product of its operating system - but LIDAR is speculative, I know only the VL53L0X ranger and it needs two windows but is very cheap (I think $5 if you buy a pack of 1000 pieces) and works up to 4m with well reflecting targets. Distance resolution is about 2mm 1 sigma and it works in the near IR which is not too far from the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Remote Rayleigh scattering and surface roughness analysis is - maybe - a little bit to complicate for a 400 $/EUR package that is also an AI flash :)
Most used tools: EOS 200D + EF-S 60mm + EF 100mm Macro + EF f/2.0 100  + 4.0 / 70-200 IS

CanonFanBoy

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2152
  • Bipolar. When it is happening I don't realize it.
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2018, 03:05:20 PM »
Que the pessimists in 3, 2, 1... wait, they've already started.  :'(

Sony
5D Mark III, Canon EF 24-70 F/2.8L II, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 35 f/1.4L II, 135 f/2L, Streaklight 360ws, Flashpoint XPLOR 600PRO, 26x m42 screw mount lenses adapted to my DSLR. Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II, Olympus M. Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

Cariboucoach

  • EOS Rebel 300D
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2018, 03:49:07 PM »

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?
40D, ,6D 430ex II, EF 24-70mm F4.0L, Tamron 150-600mm

Photorex

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 176
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Frank

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »

Sharlin

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 655
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2018, 04:28:51 PM »

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Feet vs. meters, I presume. 43 m ≈ 141 feet. 47 m ≈ 154 feet. 'Muricans really should use meter-based GNs like the rest of the world—it's not like the literal "distance" meaning of GNs is very relevant these days anyway.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 04:33:55 PM by Sharlin »

Cariboucoach

  • EOS Rebel 300D
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 04:32:51 PM »

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Frank

This is from the Canon USA website;
Superior build quality, including a metal foot for added strength
Approx. 20% faster recycling time, compared to previous 430EX
One-touch, quick-lock mechanism for easy attaching/detaching flash from camera
Full flash control possible on camera menu, with compatible EOS Digital SLR cameras
Virtually silent flash recycle
The flash head can be moved up from 0 - 90° (5 settings), left from 0 - 180° (7 settings) and right from 0 - 90° (4 settings)
Zoom flash head covers range of 24-105mm; maximum guide number 141 ft./43m at ISO 100

[iN] Now that I look at it, the guide number 47 is in meters and I am quoting feet with my EX 430. [/i]
40D, ,6D 430ex II, EF 24-70mm F4.0L, Tamron 150-600mm

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 04:32:51 PM »