June 19, 2018, 07:04:05 AM

Author Topic: Canon wants a 50% marketshare  (Read 8165 times)

Tugela

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2018, 03:05:33 PM »
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So?  on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF.  and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2018, 03:05:33 PM »

ritholtz

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2018, 03:25:36 PM »
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market.

is it worth it though? the NA mirrorless market is a 15-20% segment of the mirrorless market globally and even only around 20% for value.

I suspect that is going to change in 2018. The NA market may have resisted MILCs up till now, but there are some really compelling products on the market now. The best MILCs are as good as the best DSLRs at this point, and some are arguably better.
In NA market, DSLR's are very cheap. Canon and Nikon sells their bottom level latest/last year DSLR model with kit lens for $300. What is the cheapest mirrorless setup available in NA market? Canon M100 is the cheaperst mirrorless offering which is still way more expensive than cheaper DSLR's in the market. There are some m4/3 offerings though. May be once Canon starts pumping out mirrorless cameras with $300 - $400 price point, we can see things changing. Sony abandoned their lower end market after their successful NEX line up.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 03:29:46 PM by ritholtz »
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rrcphoto

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2018, 03:28:09 PM »
The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

I'm curious how you know that canon didn't purposely gimp the 4K for heat or battery life considerations considering it has the smallest capacity battery in all of canon's cameras.


ritholtz

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2018, 03:32:30 PM »
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So?  on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF.  and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.
They have 4k and PDAF with 5d4 and 1dx2 with their older processor.  If you go by specs, 1dx2 is the only camera with 4k 60p on the market. Latest Sony is yet to have this on their spec sheet. 1dx2 is almost 2 years old Camera.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 03:34:33 PM by ritholtz »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2018, 03:33:22 PM »
he digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

Well, after all, you're the expert on Digic processors and their capabilities.  You expertly stated that all cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K video, for an expertish example of your expertly expert expertise. 
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lexaclarke

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2018, 04:09:52 PM »
Don't all companies want a bigger marketshare? That's kinda their whole deal.

And I thought many countries have monopoly laws against one company taking up half a market.

Don Haines

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2018, 04:19:13 PM »

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

That would be true if raw processor speed was the limiting factor, but is it?

Perhaps the problem is the ability to read the sensor fast enough.....
Perhaps the problem is thermal management, where a larger body has more heat sinking ability and can run faster....

anyway, it does not matter because there is undoubtedly a digic8+ or a digic9 in the works.....
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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2018, 04:19:13 PM »

old-pr-pix

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2018, 05:16:45 PM »
The attached charts from CIPA 2018 market study show the penetration mirrorless have vs. dSLR.  On global basis ML has gone from 9% to 28% (by value) of all digital cameras shipped.  Absolute growth of ML has been slow as the overall market has shrunk dramatically.  (Total Jan 2018 shipments were down 28% Y on Y.  The bigger hit was to built-in lens (-35%), ILC was -20%.)  However, Canon's support of ML reflects their sense the market has finally reached a tipping point.

In the Americas the ML penetration lags the rest of the world by 4-5 years.  In terms of units shipped ML is still only 10% of total.  It appears the US (& Canada) still loves dSLR's!
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Jaysheldon

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2018, 05:45:50 PM »
I'm just about to plunk down over $1K for a used 400MM f5.6, so I'll be real unhappy if in the near future Canon announces the end of the EF mount -- and the availability of an adapter won't cheer me up.
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old-pr-pix

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2018, 06:04:53 PM »
I'm just about to plunk down over $1K for a used 400MM f5.6, so I'll be real unhappy if in the near future Canon announces the end of the EF mount -- and the availability of an adapter won't cheer me up.
If you are in the US, make sure you check Canon Price Watch:  https://www.cpricewatch.com/street-prices/ and for refurbs.:  https://www.cpricewatch.com/canon-refurb-stock-tracker/  It looks like 400mm 5.6 goes for  $1120 new.  If refurb. model is in stock it should be less than $1K and would have full Canon one year warranty.
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scyrene

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2018, 09:35:11 PM »
A huge, financially successful company that has been the market leader for ages and has improved its position year on year states it wants to reach another (not too fantastical) goal and people crawl out of the woodwork claiming they can't, they must change XYZ, they have the wrong attitude... Are we living on the same planet? They're ALREADY doing this. They're ALREADY massively succesful, and it's fair to infer from that that they know what they are doing, on the whole. But sure, all these armchair experts definitely know the winning strategy, while Canon does not  ::)
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Woody

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2018, 10:13:29 PM »
It appears the US (& Canada) still loves dSLR's!

I don't live in N. America. I happen to own a DSLR and a MILC.

For serious photography, I still carry my DSLR instead of MILC because composing through OVF is a lot more fun and satisfying than looking through an EVF.

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2018, 10:14:32 PM »
A huge, financially successful company that has been the market leader for ages and has improved its position year on year states it wants to reach another (not too fantastical) goal and people crawl out of the woodwork claiming they can't, they must change XYZ, they have the wrong attitude... Are we living on the same planet? They're ALREADY doing this. They're ALREADY massively succesful, and it's fair to infer from that that they know what they are doing, on the whole. But sure, all these armchair experts definitely know the winning strategy, while Canon does not  ::)

LOL gold.

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2018, 10:14:32 PM »

Woody

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2018, 10:14:47 PM »
A huge, financially successful company that has been the market leader for ages and has improved its position year on year states it wants to reach another (not too fantastical) goal and people crawl out of the woodwork claiming they can't, they must change XYZ, they have the wrong attitude... Are we living on the same planet? They're ALREADY doing this. They're ALREADY massively succesful, and it's fair to infer from that that they know what they are doing, on the whole. But sure, all these armchair experts definitely know the winning strategy, while Canon does not  ::)

Well said.

Nelu

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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2018, 11:33:26 PM »
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.

Seriously?

See this:

"Sony has various autofocus tracking modes too; face recognition tracking, continuous eye autofocus tracking, center lock autofocus, etc. But none of them are as easy to enable as Canon’s focus tracking. Sony also uses a combination of phase detection autofocus (PDAF) and contrast detection autofocus (CDAF), which works well, but does not seem to be able to match Canon’s Dual Pixel Autofocus when it comes to accuracy in situations of low light, or when shooting subjects that have limited contrast."

- https://petapixel.com/2018/03/10/5-reasons-switched-back-canon-sony/
It is comparison only for video and with old APS-C camera: A6300.

If I compare Sony A9 vs 1ds3/1d4 - stills - hit rate for moving subjects towards the camera with 70-200mm @ 2.8 is better on Sony (first person experience).
Suuuure, right! Apples to apples! Your personal experience is extremely valuable and relevant...

Sony A9 release date:April 19, 2017
Canon 1Ds3 release date: August 2007
Canon 1D4 release date: October 2009
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Re: Canon wants a 50% marketshare
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2018, 11:33:26 PM »