June 20, 2018, 04:06:13 AM

Author Topic: What's Next From Canon?  (Read 12236 times)

fullstop

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2018, 01:14:14 PM »
Why is mirrorless an total win?
<snip>

All this sounds great.  However, until it actually outperforms DSLR's for the full range of user needs, these things don't matter. 

that's were I see things differently. Yes, currently available mirrorless cameras today are not yet "solid state" with all the  benefits i listed. But the latest "top-level" FF mirrorless camera - Sony A9 - objectively outperforms Canon EOS 1DX-II  and Nikon D5 in a number of areas [e.g. sensor/resolution, 20 fps continuous shooting, eye tracking AF, etc.] and is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs - except shot reach per battery charge.

Everything else is subjective preferences - which are perfectly fine to have, but not "objectively worse", eg some people prefer OVFs over a WYSIWIG EVF without blackout. Some people - mainly those who frequently use large lenses - prefer a chunkier grip/bigger camera. Some people also love to hear a good, solid, mechanical mirrorslap and shutter actuation. But - personal preferences. Nothing to do with "outperform".

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2018, 01:14:14 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2018, 01:21:51 PM »
that's were I see things differently. Yes, currently available mirrorless cameras today are not yet "solid state" with all the  benefits i listed. But the latest "top-level" FF mirrorless camera - Sony A9 - objectively outperforms Canon EOS 1DX-II  and Nikon D5 in a number of areas [e.g. sensor/resolution, 20 fps continuous shooting, eye tracking AF, etc.] and is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs - except shot reach per battery charge.

Everything else is subjective preferences - which are perfectly fine to have, but not "objectively worse", eg some people prefer OVFs over a WYSIWIG EVF without blackout. Some people - mainly those who frequently use large lenses - prefer a chunkier grip/bigger camera. Some people also love to hear a good, solid, mechanical mirrorslap and shutter actuation. But - personal preferences. Nothing to do with "outperform".

I seem recall that the A9 electronic shutter that is mandatory to shoot faster than 5 fps is a clear step back for some things that are not subjective -- I've heard that panning can lead to a jello effect and stadium/arena lighting can lead to nasty unfixable banding in some shots.

True?  Has anyone used the A9 and can comment on that?  I remember Jared Polin putting something out that screamed 'we have a problem here' that was pretty hotly debated.  I wasn't sure how that landed.

- A

Kit.

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2018, 01:41:11 PM »
that's were I see things differently. Yes, currently available mirrorless cameras today are not yet "solid state" with all the  benefits i listed. But the latest "top-level" FF mirrorless camera - Sony A9 - objectively outperforms Canon EOS 1DX-II  and Nikon D5 in a number of areas [e.g. sensor/resolution, 20 fps continuous shooting, eye tracking AF, etc.] and is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs - except shot reach per battery charge.
How about startup time, for example?

fullstop

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2018, 02:07:18 PM »
Ok yes, agreed - still some "rough edges" remaining. But essentially we have reached "full parity" between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras.

Problem today is not "technical", but "marketing". Lots of DSLRs for sale but only limited choice of mirrorless cameras, especially only 4 brands of APS-C mirrorless ILCs - Canon, Fujifilm, Leica, Sony (or missing someone?) and only 2 brands for FF-sensored [Leica, Sony].

That sucks. At least subjectively for me. And maybe for a few others too. LOL. 

ahsanford

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2018, 03:29:44 PM »
Ok yes, agreed - still some "rough edges" remaining. But essentially we have reached "full parity" between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras.

Let me know when 'full parity' gets to double digit percentages of the 1DX2/D5-level userbase.

- A
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:32:49 PM by ahsanford »

Kit.

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2018, 03:32:41 PM »
Personally, I don't see a problem.

When Live View becomes at least as good as mirror slapping, the mirror will die out due to production cost reasons alone.

Mikehit

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2018, 05:50:36 PM »

that's were I see things differently. Yes, currently available mirrorless cameras today are not yet "solid state" with all the  benefits i listed. But the latest "top-level" FF mirrorless camera - Sony A9 - objectively outperforms Canon EOS 1DX-II  and Nikon D5 in a number of areas [e.g. sensor/resolution, 20 fps continuous shooting, eye tracking AF, etc.] and is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs - except shot reach per battery charge.

Everything else is subjective preferences - which are perfectly fine to have, but not "objectively worse", eg some people prefer OVFs over a WYSIWIG EVF without blackout. Some people - mainly those who frequently use large lenses - prefer a chunkier grip/bigger camera. Some people also love to hear a good, solid, mechanical mirrorslap and shutter actuation. But - personal preferences. Nothing to do with "outperform".

If I recall correctly, the 20fps is only available with focus fixed on the first shot. Fat lot of good for birds in flight....or any other movement for that matter.
And focus tracking is not yet as good as 1Dx2/D5.

So when you say " is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs" what did you mean exactly?

Then again, given that you admit these uses are not ones you are interested in, how would you possibly know what is expected when people buy these cameras?

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2018, 05:50:36 PM »

fullstop

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2018, 10:01:34 PM »
BIF, sports and wildlife shooters are small minority niches. For those users (top level) DSLRs may still hold some advantages. For the vast majority of cameras and camera users all the way up to and including EOS 5D 4 level, mirrorless cameras already outperform DSLRs.

But it does not matter what i write. You will see soon enough how mirrorless takes over and DSLRs will become as exotic and small a niche as film shooters today are.

3kramd5

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #143 on: June 14, 2018, 10:06:10 PM »
BIF, sports and wildlife shooters are small minority niches. For those users (top level) DSLRs may still hold some advantages. For the vast majority of cameras and camera users all the way up to and including EOS 5D 4 level, mirrorless cameras already outperform DSLRs.

But it does not matter what i write. You will see soon enough how mirrorless takes over and DSLRs will become as exotic and small a niche as film shooters today are.

DLSR and MILC are niches within a niche.

fullstop

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2018, 10:09:41 PM »
BIF, sports and wildlife shooters are small minority niches. For those users (top level) DSLRs may still hold some advantages. For the vast majority of cameras and camera users all the way up to and including EOS 5D 4 level, mirrorless cameras already outperform DSLRs.

But it does not matter what i write. You will see soon enough how mirrorless takes over and DSLRs will become as exotic and small a niche as film shooters today are.

DLSR and MILC are niches within a niche.

yes. And the uses so dear to many here are extra small sub-niches. :-)

Isaacheus

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2018, 10:13:42 PM »

that's were I see things differently. Yes, currently available mirrorless cameras today are not yet "solid state" with all the  benefits i listed. But the latest "top-level" FF mirrorless camera - Sony A9 - objectively outperforms Canon EOS 1DX-II  and Nikon D5 in a number of areas [e.g. sensor/resolution, 20 fps continuous shooting, eye tracking AF, etc.] and is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs - except shot reach per battery charge.

Everything else is subjective preferences - which are perfectly fine to have, but not "objectively worse", eg some people prefer OVFs over a WYSIWIG EVF without blackout. Some people - mainly those who frequently use large lenses - prefer a chunkier grip/bigger camera. Some people also love to hear a good, solid, mechanical mirrorslap and shutter actuation. But - personal preferences. Nothing to do with "outperform".

If I recall correctly, the 20fps is only available with focus fixed on the first shot. Fat lot of good for birds in flight....or any other movement for that matter.
And focus tracking is not yet as good as 1Dx2/D5.

So when you say " is in no aspect objectively behind those top level DSLRs" what did you mean exactly?

Then again, given that you admit these uses are not ones you are interested in, how would you possibly know what is expected when people buy these cameras?

Can't speak to the tracking performance vs canon/Nikon, but I was under the impression the a9 can af at 20 fps, but it's dependent on which lens - the top level ones can while many of the cheaper options are limited to 15fps?

I had a brief play around with an a9 and 100-400 gm when they were first introduced and that combo seemed to track at full speed

3kramd5

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2018, 10:56:46 PM »
BIF, sports and wildlife shooters are small minority niches. For those users (top level) DSLRs may still hold some advantages. For the vast majority of cameras and camera users all the way up to and including EOS 5D 4 level, mirrorless cameras already outperform DSLRs.

But it does not matter what i write. You will see soon enough how mirrorless takes over and DSLRs will become as exotic and small a niche as film shooters today are.

DLSR and MILC are niches within a niche.

yes. And the uses so dear to many here are extra small sub-niches. :-)

No doubt. 135 format and wide aperture lenses to cover that format probably lead that charge for nicheniche.

neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2018, 11:06:30 PM »
soon

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2018, 11:06:30 PM »

3kramd5

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2018, 11:26:07 PM »
soon

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Soon isna relative term. In this case it’s relative to when harry film sells a codec.

CanonFanBoy

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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:48 PM »
Here's what's coming next from my MULTIPLE Euro-sources:

I have access to corporate and other intelligence systems that have been rather reliable for me in the past. I don't ask for nor discuss personal identification with my sources since they want to keep themselves anonymous, but I can say that their technical and educational credentials are at such a high-level that they CANNOT be dismissed easily! (i.e. I can't really argue with actual CPU/GPU/DSP chip designers!)

1) Canon is is coming with a short flange distance mirrorless camera.
It will look very much like the M5 and may actually be intended to replace it!
A Canon corporate decision has NOT YET BEEN MADE as to whether to sell the currently in-testing APS-C or Full Frame versions OR BOTH !!! An adapter of some kind will be made available for EITHER or BOTH cameras to allow OTHER Canon lenses to have full functionality!

2) An up-to-65mm Very Large Sensor Medium Format Camera having 50 megapixels at a greater than Sony's 20 fps burst rate has been in-the-wild-testing for almost two years at various levels of refinement.

A large-format specialty EF mount has been designed along with a decent range of lenses created to appeal to sports/action/wildlife (200mm, 400mm, 600mm) plus portraiture (16mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm and 135 primes) and ONE stabilized 70-to-200mm zoom will be introduced. One Tilt Shift and Macro lens are also on the table but I don't know what focal length they are. The lenses are so large that focus-by-wire has been implemented BUT there is STILL a MANUAL focus and iris ring on these lenses but they are TRULY drive-by-wire designs.

These new lenses will all be PREMIUM L-series being very large and heavy but WELL PRICED compared to the higher end Leica, Zeiss, Fujinon lenses. This is a system that is DESIGNED for very low-light and very low noise photography at 50 megapixels (i.e. at around 8k by 6.xx k-pixels).

From what I understand, the DSP processing onboard is 20-bits per channel digitizing down to 16-bits per colour channel at 4:4:4/4:2:2 wavelet-based stills AND 4:4:4/4:2:2 INTERFRAME and INTRAFRAME encoded full-sensor downsampled 4k video at 60 fps! The consistent story I am getting from ALL my sources is this is to be Canon's FLAGSHIP STILLS camera being faster, higher resolution, lower noise and MUCH BETTER IMAGE/VIDEO QUALITY than the 1Dx Mk2....the biggest issue is that you will be paying a pretty penny for both the camera and lenses and that Canon expects 200,000+ of them to be sold within it's first 6 months of introduction! (that seems a bit low to me), but anyways, that's still up to 3.2 BILLION EUROS if it stays at the 12000 to 16000 Euros mark for just the body that I have been told it will be sold at!

Add on the lenses and Canon could be on the mark for 5 BILLION+ Euros in just Six Months! For the 350 Million Euros of Research and Development it was estimated/rumoured to cost for this camera, I would say that is a pretty good return on investment!

3) SOME sort of agreement between Apple and Canon is on the table RIGHT NOW!!!
It might be either a joint-venture agreement OR a straight-up takeover of Canon by Apple...BUT...the rumour mill is so hot right now on this, that I am getting well- bombarded by conflicting stories as to which it is! Joint Venture or Takeover?
I can't be truly confident yet as to which it is but I will let you know!

ONE THING that is consistent though is that one or more LARGE SENSOR SMARTPHONES (one inch sensors or larger!) using Canon imaging hardware and software IS in the cards! Will it be Apple-branded or Canon-branded...WHO KNOWS ???

4) DCI 8k (8192 by 4380 pixel) 60 fps Global Shutter sensors ARE coming to the Cinema EOS line of video cameras. There absolutely WILL be Full Frame AND APS-C models! Looks like NAB 2019 is the big splash date for this!

5) And an update to making a combined stills/video XC-15-like body with an interchangeable lens system LIKELY to be introduced at Photokina. 20 megapixels+ with 1" chip and decent 4K interframe-encoded video at 60 fps. Possibly 10-bit 4:2:2.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!!!!

Harry, go get a Brazilian as you try to wax insider.
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Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:48 PM »