July 17, 2018, 12:00:19 AM

Author Topic: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths  (Read 4599 times)

jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 09:07:13 AM »
Canon execs responsible for EF-M themselves have clearly stated in an interview [I linked to it in some other thread] that it is not intended for FF image circle.

Well, I don't know what they said, but I really don't think there's any coincidence that the mount is almost identical to the sony E/FE mount and also the same throat width as Nikon F mount, both of which obviously work for a FF image circle.

EF-M is perfectly capable of FF.   Look at the Sony FE mount as an example. When you mount an adaptor such as the Metabones on the mount and plug in a standard EF lens there's no additional vignetting - the mount is perfectly designed for a FF image circle.

Now, that doesn't mean they WILL use EF-M for mirrorless, as there are clearly many reasons to keep the EF mount.  But I doubt that Canon would create yet another incompatible mount format.  Keeping to the EF-M mount means that future FF mirrorless lenses would also work on their APS-C cameras - as the EF lenses do on EF-S mount cameras, why would Canon go backwards and create incompatible mounts between their APS-C and FF mirrorless options when there is absolutely no need to?

Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 09:07:13 AM »

fullstop

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 10:14:56 AM »
Canon execs responsible for EF-M themselves have clearly stated in an interview [I linked to it in some other thread] that it is not intended for FF image circle.

Well, I don't know what they said, but I really don't think there's any coincidence that the mount is almost identical to the sony E/FE mount and also the same throat width as Nikon F mount, both of which obviously work for a FF image circle.

EF-M is perfectly capable of FF.   Look at the Sony FE mount as an example. When you mount an adaptor such as the Metabones on the mount and plug in a standard EF lens there's no additional vignetting - the mount is perfectly designed for a FF image circle.

Now, that doesn't mean they WILL use EF-M for mirrorless, as there are clearly many reasons to keep the EF mount.  But I doubt that Canon would create yet another incompatible mount format.  Keeping to the EF-M mount means that future FF mirrorless lenses would also work on their APS-C cameras - as the EF lenses do on EF-S mount cameras, why would Canon go backwards and create incompatible mounts between their APS-C and FF mirrorless options when there is absolutely no need to?


no. EF-M is NOT "perfectly capable of FF". Just like the poorly chosen Sony E-mount it would entail MASSIVE compromises to press it into FF service. In the form of lenses that rre not as compact as they could and should be, more complex than they could and should be and wy more expensive than they could and should be. See Sony FE ... no lens I would buy over there. Either subpar performance and high price or performance on par with Canon glass and 30-50% more expensive. A lot of it is due to Sony's decision to use E-mount with its "well chosen for APS-C" parameters also for FF image circle. Ever wondered why there is so much hollow air-filled tube at the mount end of those stupid Sony FE lenses?

Why is it, that you guys always find time to post but are NEVER able to google something and read it first? SO here is AGAIN the link to the interview with the Canon guys who actually DESIGNED the EF-M mount:
https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/551672.html

And to make it even easier for all "reading-challenged posters", here the important piece:

Quote
- Where is the most important factor in developing a new mount called "EF - M"?
Nakamura: It is a mount diameter that satisfies the APS - C size image circle properly, but also to make it possible to realize small size and light weight. In addition, the operation feeling such as attaching and detaching the lens is designed to be the same as the EF mount.
EF-M mount. The mount diameter is also reduced from the EF mount

- Can the EF-M mount correspond to sensors larger than APS - C size, eg 35 mm full size sensor?
Kikuchi: I think that I can not do that. I can not say that if I do something strange, I will not physically enter ... .... It is a level that the amount of marginal light falls considerably or that you do not know what the image will be like.

in other words: "not designed for FF, maybe borderline possible, but only with MASSIVE COMPROMISES". See Sony FE. Any questions?

TL;DR: Canon EF-M is not a suitable, good mount for FF image circle. Canon knows that. Most likely it is one of the main reasons they have not been able to launch a FF mirrorless system yet.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 10:23:18 AM »
in other words: "not designed for FF, maybe borderline possible, but only with MASSIVE COMPROMISES". See Sony FE. Any questions?

And yet...Sony E-mount full frame lenses from Sony (GM) and Zeiss deliver excellent IQ.  Sure, they’re no smaller than equivalent EF lenses.  But the compromise is only ‘MASSIVE’ because you personally want a FF MILC system that’s as small as possible, or even smaller.  Get this fact through your thick skull – YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE MARKET.
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fullstop

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 11:54:21 AM »
you might want to be a bit more careful with your ASSumptions. :-)

I am definitely "representative" for a much larger portion of the stills imaging market than you.

How many (private) Canon EF 600/4 owners are there globally? 10.000 ? More? Less?

And how many potential buyers of a compact, fully competent, enthusiast-affordable mirrorless Canon FF camera system are out there? 

... owned.  ;D

ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2018, 12:10:10 PM »
... owned.  ;D

Are you nine years old?  You can't be a cheering section for your own content.

Just a thought: convince someone else here to pat you on the back instead of doing it yourself.  I don't know, log back on as AvTvM and say "Wow.  Great point.  You nailed it, dude." 

- A

neuroanatomist

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 12:16:27 PM »
... owned.  ;D

Are you nine years old?  You can't be a cheering section for your own content.

Yeah, he’s a real legend in his own mind.  Of course, if you live in your own private universe, it’s easy to be popular with all of your imaginary friends. 
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fullstop

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 12:16:32 PM »
just a bit sick and tired of "incessant" personal attacks and the ongoing attempt to bully me by stating "i was all alone and nobody else" would want the products and features I'd like to get ... rather than useless Canon gimmicks like 1970s style LCD displays on lens barrels.

In reality Canon customers like me are the vast majority. And folks like Neuro are a tiny minorety niche. 

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 12:16:32 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2018, 12:23:47 PM »
just a bit sick and tired of "incessant"

You just hit yourself over the head with the irony hammer.  Ouch!
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jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2018, 12:25:58 PM »
Wait a minute, I'm getting confused by the argument.

I thought *I* was the one who wanted a super compact FF Canon mirrorless system, which is why I want EF-M mount and not EF mount.

As I said before, there will be EF mount or EF-M mount, I think it's almost impossible Canon will go for a third incompatible mount system. Once they start doing, for example, cheap 50mm lenses, they'll want them to be sold to APS-C shooters as well as FF shooters, so the mount has to be the same.

Jolyon Ralph

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fullstop

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 12:50:50 PM »
As I said before, there will be EF mount or EF-M mount, I think it's almost impossible Canon will go for a third incompatible mount system. Once they start doing, for example, cheap 50mm lenses, they'll want them to be sold to APS-C shooters as well as FF shooters, so the mount has to be the same.

There is no "incompatible" mount. Canon will simply move from 2 mounts in the mirrorslapping past to 2 mounts in the mirrorless future. 1 FF mount, 1 APS_C mount.

1. EF -> EF-X ... "full frame" image circle; full backwards compatibility with EF glass via simple adapter; functionality within limits of legacy EF glass - especially for AF, but also other more advanced functions; "wireless E-TTL II with second curtain snyc" for example ;-)   

2. EF-S -> EF-M .. for APS-C. transition almost complete already. Not many more EF-SS lenses to come. Except an 18-55 kit lens with lens LCD display, maybe :-)

Only during multi-year transition period will there be "4 versions of mounts" - 2 old, 2 new. Evrything cross-compatible within reason [lenses need to cover image circle]. 

Canon does a separate mount for APS-C and FF also with mirrorless because it has worked so well for them in the past. First, people run out and buy "entry level" APS-C cameras and APS-C lenses [EF-S]. Then they upgrade to "full frame" cameras and lenses [EF]. Then they add mirrorless APS-C cameras + lenses [EF-M] for small size. Then they buy full frame mirrorless cameras and lenses ["EF-X"] once Canon launches them.

End result: Canon has cashed in 4 times on the same customer set.  :P  ;D

Even me, a typical, highly representative, well-informed, good-looking, critical and smart Canon customer has completed the first 3 steps in this lemming cycle already. And looking forward to take the 4th step too. Stupid me. LOL. :-)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:56:59 PM by fullstop »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2018, 01:37:50 PM »
There is no "incompatible" mount. Canon will simply move from 2 mounts in the mirrorslapping past to 2 mounts in the mirrorless future. 1 FF mount, 1 APS_C mount.

1. EF -> EF-X ... "full frame" image circle; full backwards compatibility with EF glass via simple adapter; functionality within limits of legacy EF glass - especially for AF, but also other more advanced functions; "wireless E-TTL II with second curtain snyc" for example ;-)   

2. EF-S -> EF-M .. for APS-C. transition almost complete already. Not many more EF-SS lenses to come. Except an 18-55 kit lens with lens LCD display, maybe :-)

EF lenses mount natively on APS-C DSLRs.  The hypothetical ‘EF-X’ mount lenses would require an adapter to mount on EOS M bodies, which is a barrier for buyers transitioning from APS-C to FF.  Moreover, the ‘really right’ EF-MDB* mount for a FF MILC would require an adapter that’s 6-8mm thick, which is an ergonomic nightmare. 

* EF-Mode Dial Boy

Only during multi-year transition period will there be "4 versions of mounts" - 2 old, 2 new. Evrything cross-compatible within reason [lenses need to cover image circle]. 

Multi-decade, you mean.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2018, 01:09:29 AM »
My Loupedeck+ finally arrived today.  I have it installed, I had to restart my computer to get the configuration software to run, but then it was ok.
There is definitely going to be a learning curve, particularly in setting the configuration.  I did not want to change the defaults yet, remembering all the unmarked buttons may be a pain if its a seldom used function.  That big dial juist wants you to turn it, that puts it in the crop mode and then rotates the image.  There is a auto straighten function in the crop mode, I use it, so I need to figure that one out.  I also use the auto tone as a starting point, I know it can be done, I just need to find the button.
Its too late to do more anyway, so I'll play tomorrow.  I have 2000 images to sort and edit so I'll find out if it hurts lass than using my mouse.

ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2018, 01:17:21 AM »
My Loupedeck+ finally arrived today.  I have it installed, I had to restart my computer to get the configuration software to run, but then it was ok.
There is definitely going to be a learning curve, particularly in setting the configuration.  I did not want to change the defaults yet, remembering all the unmarked buttons may be a pain if its a seldom used function.  That big dial juist wants you to turn it, that puts it in the crop mode and then rotates the image.  There is a auto straighten function in the crop mode, I use it, so I need to figure that one out.  I also use the auto tone as a starting point, I know it can be done, I just need to find the button.
Its too late to do more anyway, so I'll play tomorrow.  I have 2000 images to sort and edit so I'll find out if it hurts lass than using my mouse.

This is a soft-focus lens thread, isn't it?   ???

- A

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2018, 01:17:21 AM »

fullstop

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2018, 02:49:18 AM »
yes, but interest and demand  for soft focus lenses seems a bit ... soft. :-)

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Re: Patent: Soft Focus Lens Designs, Various Focal Lengths
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2018, 02:49:18 AM »